Season 5 - Dull?

Penn Jillette (the tall, talking one) is a loud, blustering yacking smart-ass. But that is almost a required personality trait for his job.

You can't have a show like Bullshit, which is basically an elaborate way to brow-beat an audience with your opinions, without being that kind of personality. It is the result of possessing a large ego and a larger mouth.

Their stage act is a lot of fun and Bullshit is quite entertaining.

I can see how he'd rub off on people the wrong way. I can't criticize it too much, though, since my personality is so similar.

dencor said:

I do think that Day of the Dead could have been much better. It would have been great to see Kosh come back and they should have concentrated more On the Londo, Adira moments but they had to set up the whole Lennier story and trying to develop new characters.

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Of course I can't put my finger on the quote now that I need it, but I'm nearly absolutely positive that JMS was asked about this -- how and why Neil Gaiman chose the characters he chose to feature in "Day of the Dead" -- and the answer was that he was given information about the show (he probably watched it himself, too), and simply chose the characters he wanted to use on his own. In other words, JMS did not tell him, "Please make sure one of the characters to have a visitation is Lennier, because I need to set up his story for later in the season."

Jumping in late on another discussion here, my guess, too, is that Penn Jillette is the person who rubbed Bruce the wrong way. I'm sure though that it wasn't simply his personality; Bruce is pretty openly Republican, while Penn is virulently libertarian.

Amy

AnlaShokGrey said:

Of course I can't put my finger on the quote now that I need it, but I'm nearly absolutely positive that JMS was asked about this -- how and why Neil Gaiman chose the characters he chose to feature in "Day of the Dead" -- and the answer was that he was given information about the show (he probably watched it himself, too), and simply chose the characters he wanted to use on his own. In other words, JMS did not tell him, "Please make sure one of the characters to have a visitation is Lennier, because I need to set up his story for later in the season."

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It might be this post?

From: J. Michael Straczynski <71016.1644@compuserve.com>
Subject: DotD Writing Question
To: CIS
Date: 3/12/1998 6:33:00 AM

Anita Karve <73653.3253@compuserve.com> asks:
> Do you give them a framework and let them run with it?
> How do you maintain the continuity while working with someone
> from the outside?

It varies, I get involved to different degrees with different
writers; with Neil, it was more "What do you want to write?" He
noodled around with some ideas, ran one past me that he liked, and I
liked it...he asked for a truckload of scripts for reference, picked
the characters he wanted to use, researched them, we talked on the
phone and via email a number of times as he refined his ideas further,
then wrote the script. I tucked and nipped a little here and there,
but pretty much left it alone.

jms

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Also, in the Jane Killick Season 5 book, Bill Mumy mentions that he'd spoken to Neil Gaiman a few time at conventions so there may have been a personal connection in the choice to use Lennier.

Jumping in late on another discussion here, my guess, too, is that Penn Jillette is the person who rubbed Bruce the wrong way. I'm sure though that it wasn't simply his personality; Bruce is pretty openly Republican, while Penn is virulently libertarian.

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Naturally, this time *I* can't find the post, but iirc Jillette rubbed JMS wrong, too. Something about Jillette having one fingernail painted red and being rude when JMS asked about it?

Jan

Hey there - I'm new to these forums, even if I've been a Babylon 5 fan since I can't remember. This was a post that really got my attention.

I have the entire box set - I didn't see s5 on the TV (I think it used to be on Channel 4), so I'd never seen it before. I was disappointed by the majority of it.

I'm glad to read that so many others have a dislike of Byron - I really hated his character and the whole telepath story. I found that they seemed to drop the Lyta/Kosh scenario as soon as s5 started. I was kind of hoping that she'd go beyond the Rim after the Vorlons or something, just to kind of tidy it up a bit, rather than introduce Byron.

But I did enjoy the Londo-G'kar bits. That was the season's saving grace. The relationship they built up between the two of them was brilliant and exceptionally funny.

I was also hoping for a bit more about the allies of the Shadows. I thought that the telepath scenario drew away from the Drakh and the Psi Corps involvement with the Shadows. They dropped the "frozen telepaths" off the scene - they just appeared to vanish!

I just felt s5 seemed very rushed and too different from the first 4. Maybe it was the loss of some of my favourites - Kosh, Ivanova, Marcus, Morden - but it didn't have the same appeal.

When I saw season five for the first time, in its first run, I was a bit disappointed, even though I don't dislike Byron, and sympathized with the rogue teeps quite a bit. Season 5 just seemed weaker, not rich with moments as powerful as in the preceding seasons, and it seemed a bit anticlimactic. I wrote it off to the fact that JMS was somewhat burnt out by the herculean task of writing almost all of the scripts for several years. I still think that was a factor, but with later viewings, my opinion of season 5 rose considerably. I was over the let-down of the lower anxiety levels, and was able to appreciate season 5 for itself, with less comparison to what came before. I now find it to be on parr, on the whole, with the rest of the series.

Cannonade said:

I have the entire box set - I didn't see s5 on the TV (I think it used to be on Channel 4), so I'd never seen it before. I was disappointed by the majority of it.

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Byron was only in the first half. After he (thankfully) bit the dust, it got much better.

Cannonade said:

But I did enjoy the Londo-G'kar bits. That was the season's saving grace. The relationship they built up between the two of them was brilliant and exceptionally funny.

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For me, the Centauri arc made Season 5 worthwhile, culminating with that clip showing the tragic descent of Londo.

Cannonade said:

I was also hoping for a bit more about the allies of the Shadows. I thought that the telepath scenario drew away from the Drakh and the Psi Corps involvement with the Shadows. They dropped the "frozen telepaths" off the scene - they just appeared to vanish!

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Well, we were getting some of that in Crusade and would have gotten more if TNT-Atlanta hadn't reared it's ugly head.

Yeah, it's definitely half-and-half for me. The first half is almost all bad - at least by B5 standards - and the second half is almost all excellent - by any standards!

I've just bought s5 on DVD and am watching it for the 2nd/3rd time since TV - can't remamber, and now I remember why, even though I forget most of the lines.

Dull? Hell yeah!

We've just come from the breakneck high action high drama of s4 to what seems like a pre-s1-velocity series.

There's too much bad acting, weak script, lame stories.

?I wa hoping for a telephath war as was hinted in s4, but if I'd have done this I'd have had a war that was total and in your face - mundanes weapons verses telepaths abilities.

Same for the Drakh. They should have allies too and should've conspired to an all-out assault somewhere bult up over several episodes - hit B5 while their forces are down high action high drama stuff, then resorted to the tactics they did.

It's the same old dilema - too much of a good thing. Just like Star Wars. The original 3 (which equates to series 1 - 4 of B5) were stuff of revolution, but then they go and have a few more and spoil it... It's why all the true greats of all human history die young. There's only 4 series of B5 and like there's only 4 Star Wars films IMO!

'4' is the magic number, not 3!

In the end it's 'one for the fans' so just enjoy some more of your most favourite characters in the universe doing their most favourite things in the universe...

Being that the very existence of season 5 was in doubt at the time, I believe JMS concluded much of original the story in season 4. When TNT committed to make the final season, he had a new season to write. That's why season 5 feels like an extended epilogue. Though I still enjoyed it, even the Byron story and his band of rogue telepaths.

Hi im new here, well, new and new, i have read this forum for years, but just now bothered registering to post to this thread. (I have been lazy).

I am getting everything now from my memory banks, so correct me if im totally wrong. As i think you all know Babylon 5 was meant orginally to be a five year arc. In year 4 it became clear that it would most likely be the last year.

In orginal plans season 4 would end in episode "Intersections In Real Time".
That was to be the Season finale of Season 4 in the orginal plans where B5 would run 5 seasons. The Earth Civil War would continue in fifth season from that point forward.

However It became to JMS attention that show would be "canceled" after 4th season. So JMS decided change the plans from orginal 5 year arc to 4 year arc. In practice that meant that Season 4 would be "tightened" to more compac package to allow JMS to conclude the story threads and end the series in Season 4 by moving season 5 stuff to season 4. If JMS would have done season 4 like orginally planned and series would have been cancelled (no TNT to rescue). Whole series would have ended to a cliffhanger (Sheridan tortured and held by Clark). And most likely we would have never seen how story concludes. So JMS really did it for audience, tightened the 4th season and wrapped up the show and major story threads within the 4th season instead in 5th like orginally planned.

So the orginal 4th season was shortened (Shadow war and Minbari Civil war lost some episodes) and JMS tied up the major plots (ended EA Civil war) and constructed the end of the show to the end of 4th season (SiL).
Then TNT came in a last minute and gave Babylon 5 a fifth season.

Personally i would have wished as many others i believe that the 5th season would have been a certain thing and JMS had sticked to orginal plans with his 5 year arc. They made a new Season finale instead of SiL wich was moved to season 5 finale, tough in "Rising Star" you get a very powerful feeling about series end still.

I don't think season 4 suffered that much, even tough, Shadow War and Minbari Civil War were shorter than meant to be orginally and final half of the EA civil war had to be shorter too as it was moved from 5th to 4th season to tie up the story. First half of the fifth season tough suffered greatly from this. Previous seasons would end in cliffhangers, and the story would continue in next season. Now JMS tied up the main story threads in the end of the 4th season, and the new season finale didn't leave any particular cliffhangers, in fact the entire episode was quite stand alone.

This makes a few problems considering season 5. The great inertia, the force of story that evolves and continues trough season finale to next season isn't there because the main stories ended in Season 4. There is no strong story to continue to next season. JMS pretty much started season 5 with a clean slate. And that is the reason I think why S5 feels so seperate to rest of the series. The main story arcs were concluded in season 4 because it was tought B5 would end in season 4. In a way Season 5 is a "bonus" season. It was not expected, but they got it. Of course JMS would implement orginal plans for season 5, Tough first half of the season would had to be very different as the EA civil war was concluded in last season not in 5th season as orginally intended.

So the first half of the fifth season became little dull even and feels little separate to rest of the series. It feels almost like reset button was pushed as the main stories ended in last season and JMS starts with clean slate to build story again. Tough i think JMS story idea about rogue telepaths moving B5 didn't quite hit the spot, as a matter of fact pretty far from it.
It would have been a good side story for first half of the season, but it is not a good main story, atleast I didn't find the story so interesting. Many has compared season 5 for Season 1. I find some similarities, like there are more stand alone episodes and stories like in Season 1. In first half Season 1 main stories hadn't yet started (well in the background yes, but not visibly). In Season 5 the "main" stories are "over"(tough continuation brewing in background), so yes there is similar feeling between first half of season 1 and first half of season 5. Main difference is tough that Season 1 is introduction and in Season 5 we know most of the characters and what they have been trough.

Of course there is few bright spots in the first half of S5, and some buildup for Centauri/drakh story in the background that kicks in later. Overall the first half is weak tough, the story isn't strong enough and the overal feeling feels poor too. Tough "The Very Long Night of Londo Mollari" is a very good episode. The second half of the season is pure Vorlon Planetkiller.


If things would have gone orginal way Season 4 ended on "Intersections In Real Time" and EA civil war continued in season 5 i believe the season would have been much stronger. There would be no "Season 5 is dull?" - topics. However things went how they went and here we are. Tough i wonder if JMS would have dropped the telepath story fully or partly atleast (making it not the primary thing on early season) and made the Centauri story to kick in much sooner. First half of the Season would have been better and in latter half JMS could have focused on the rise of Telepath war or atleast build up (as it would happen before Crusade anyway) and perhaps little more a about Centauri and Londo under Drakh.

Well i hope B5 continues in some form of reincarnation. More Lost Tales if nothing else. Whoa i wrote a long one. Clock is 4:26 am. here And im dead tired. I bet my text is infected by typos at this late hour and i apologize for that.

Best Regards to you all,

Newest registered member Zarto

Welcome to the board Zarto ... didn't help JMS that all of his notes on early season 5 were thrown away by the Blackpool hotel he was staying in during a convention, just after the pickup of season 5 by TNT. That made it even more of blank slate.

I wouldn't paint the whole of season 5 with the same brush. Londo and G'Kar's interactions were most amusing. The whole Centuari arc was actually quite interesting, at least to me anyway. And you've got to give kudos to JMS for SiL. One of the best finales to a tv series I've ever seen.

Kaz said:

...And you've got to give kudos to JMS for SiL. One of the best finales to a tv series I've ever seen.

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But then, there's that SiL was written and filmed at the end of season four, so one could argue that in a way SiL isn't part of season five when it comes to where jms's mind was when he wrote season five.

Just been watching s5 for the 4th time and it's better than I gave credit.

Ok, it's just not worthy of being called 'B5' in some places and the Byron story is still crap (part of B5's addiction is having characters you care about. I care for none of Byron's lot), but all the Centauri and Narn stuff is still great and there's some pretty cool humour. It's watchable enough.

hypatia said:

That would be the one that talks. I am guessing. I think GKE said he's rather known for being quite arrogant.

I actually like their act, a lot. But I didn't like their bit in the show. Why has no one mentioned that the writing was horrible for that part? And Teller doesn't play a Harpo-like character, he's completely different. So he wasn't even imitating himself.

It was badly written.

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I absolutely agree there..it was very poorly written..they missed an opportunity for some great humor there, IMO...

Cannonade said:

They dropped the "frozen telepaths" off the scene - they just appeared to vanish!

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I also was dissapointed they didn`t follow this up...I wondered if they would cover it in one of the movies..(I haven`t seen the last one yet)

ETA: I just saw about it starting to be covered in Crusade..I just didn`t "click" with that show..don`t know why..I should go and give it another try..

I just started to read the go-around with JMS and Claudia in The Lurkers Guide...I just can`t read all that..it seems to degenerate vey quickly into a 'he said/shesaid'..I was extremely dissapointed when Claudia was not in season 5, as i`m sure many were..she was my fav.character in the series..

Now for a question..how many of you here liked her 'replacement'?...(I use the term loosely as Tracy Scoggins was not a new actress doing the same character, but was added as the new woman on the crew...) Did you like her character?...did you like her as an actress?...After I got over the initial shock of no Ivonova, I quite liked her...

Byron was a wanker.As soon as he is gone the season is more enjoyable in my opinion.

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lmao

Though I agree...

The whole telepath thing was downright creepy--the whole Jim Jones / holding hands and singing. I think that freaks me out more than Hannibal Lector.

And I also think Season 5 only gets better. Though, I have to admit, I had "post Shadow-War" depression for a while after season 4.

I will say that Lochley grew on me after I watched the movie with her and Martin Sheen (River of Souls.) For some reason, I loved her in that and came to respect her as a character afterwards. She's badass. She'd slap you upside the head for eating cookies in bed, then she'd put on frilly underthings and make you suffer in a good way.

One of my favorite parts in Season 5, though, was the creator of Dilbert asking Garibaldi to find his cat.

DeLenn said:

Did you like her character?...did you like her as an actress?...After I got over the initial shock of no Ivonova, I quite liked her...

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I think she was a reasonably good actress, but I didn't like her character. In fact, she was probably the character I liked least, in all B5. Of course Bester and Morden were evil, and Lochley wasn't, but I enjoyed Bester and Morden, as characters, quite a bit.

Jade Jaguar said:

I think she was a reasonably good actress, but I didn't like her character. In fact, she was probably the character I liked least, in all B5. Of course Bester and Morden were evil, and Lochley wasn't, but I enjoyed Bester and Morden, as characters, quite a bit.

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What didn`t you like about her JJ?...I tend to agree with Alluveal..she was a badass..I like that in a woman..