1000 yrs in detail!

I wasn't too sure of just where I should start this thread. A thread meant to remind all B5 fans about the detail of the B5 universe.

Some over time have complained about LotR, stating that JMS was simply making up some new big baddie enemy with The Hand. A one-trick-pony kinda thing (even though JMS absolutely despises the thought being considered such).

I was watching some of the special features on the movie DVD's....specifically his intro to TS. It is there that JMS again reiterates that he has the B5 universse mapped out "in detail 1000 yrs in either direction."

Now...does anyone still think The Hand wasn't something more that would've been revealed later had a series been picked up, something JMS already was aware of and planned for?

He's very adamant about the detail and knowing exactly what happens in the B5 universe. So I refuse to accept that The Hand was nothing more than an, "oh, a need a new big bad guy alien...something like the Shadows."

Nope, this was planned and we would've found out some wowing revelation about just who they were had the Rangers series been done.

Lastly, a question: After watching TS again (hadn't seen it in years), I was wondering...could they have been or had something to do with The Hand? Not saying they were or did, just wondering what you all thought.

Personally, I never doubt JMS on anything in the B5 Universe, simply because he does have it mapped out in such detail. He knows the universe and where it's been and it's going. So everything is a part of the larger tale.

CE

JMS also mentioned at the Hawthorne con that there were several groups that we haven't seen yet, that he hasn't had time to get to. He likened it to how the people in South America had never seen europeans and what an effect that discovery had on them.

I'd say there's still plenty to discover in the B5 universe.

Jan

This is pretty funny (No insult intended CE)

I've seen about 4 posts this morning, or this weekend along these lines (Were the Thirdspace Aliens related to The Hand in some way or vice-versa?)

The last time I saw The Hand being discussed on this board, it seemed the general consensus was that The Hand, wasn't actually a Big Bad, that it someone trying to give the impression of being a Big Bad (I think the primary reason sited had to do with, JMS wouldn't pull another Big Bad out of his Nether Regions).

Personally, I agree with your post CE, I think there's a very good chance that's how JMS might have pulled this Big Bad race out, without us ever having any inkling of their existence prior to the Rangers movie.

Amazing how our perceptions change when we're focusing on different things (IE: Now focusing on the movies prior to Rangers, since the DVD set was just released)

JMS also mentioned at the Hawthorne con that there were several groups that we haven't seen yet, that he hasn't had time to get to. He likened it to how the people in South America had never seen europeans and what an effect that discovery had on them.

I'd say there's still plenty to discover in the B5 universe.

Jan

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Great way to look at it Jan. Just because no one's seen them, doesn't mean they're not their. Every race we've seen in B5 all come from the same Galaxy correct? so there's always the possibility that someone could visit us from another Galaxy, with a form of travel totally alien to us, that makes that distance easily travelled.

Its certainly possible. Just like the first ones from our galaxy explored beyond our rim...who is to say that some first ones from another galaxy haven't left theirs to explore and wound up here.

And yea I also noticed the whole Thirdspace/Hand thing. I think I made a comment on it last week in one of the B5 Movies threads about wondering who else thought it was possible. I think its a possibility. I also remember there was some discussion around it when Rangers came out. It all sort of died off until the movies and Thirdspace has the theory going around again.

The two sets of aliens feel different.

The Thirdspace aliens used a psi attack to recruit slaves, open a gate and then exterminate everyone.

The Hand appear to be a craftier. They have a colonial race.

The Hand could have the cure for the Drahk virus.

Unless JMS has changed his method the villain does not appear until half way through the first season. Although the Vorlons turned up in the Babylon pilot. Somewhere along the line the Hand were going to give the Rangers a hand.

Now...does anyone still think The Hand wasn't something more that would've been revealed later had a series been picked up, something JMS already was aware of and planned for?

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I've recently starting thinking that we would have found out eventually that The Hand wasn't some ancient race but really some young race that had gotten its hands on some abandoned First One technology from somewhere and had decided to use those ships and start going around the galaxy being bullies under the mask of unfamiliarity.

The Hand could have the cure for the Drahk virus.

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But why would they want to give it to Earth?

Now...does anyone still think The Hand wasn't something more that would've been revealed later had a series been picked up, something JMS already was aware of and planned for?

He's very adamant about the detail and knowing exactly what happens in the B5 universe. So I refuse to accept that The Hand was nothing more than an, "oh, a need a new big bad guy alien...something like the Shadows."

[...]

Lastly, a question: After watching TS again (hadn't seen it in years), I was wondering...could they have been or had something to do with The Hand? Not saying they were or did, just wondering what you all thought.

Personally, I never doubt JMS on anything in the B5 Universe, simply because he does have it mapped out in such detail. He knows the universe and where it's been and it's going. So everything is a part of the larger tale.

CE

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I am one of those who believe that The Hand are not as tough as we are told. We only have the traitor's word for it, and he may be mislead/misinformed.

And I also believe JMS when he states that he has the universe detailed 1000 years in either direction, BUT, I also believe that that does not mean that those 1000 years are static. He may get a new idea, "Hmmm, how about me putting a race called The Hand HERE" and just change the future/history.

So if The Hand are not as bad as they claim, there are only small ripples in JMSs universe, and if they are, there may be more.

Just my 0.02 SEK (about 0.14 cent)

/IamS

Some interesting thoughts here - I agree with everyone

Another possibility about the Hand is that alien race that attacked B5 during Season 5 "A View from the gallery". My memory of this episode isa bit vague so I might be wrong, but didn't they think that it was an advance fleet and not the main attack fleet?

Well if we're going to mention threatening one-shot aliens, we can't forget the ones that sent the probe to Babylon 5 in season three's "A Day In The Strife."

The Hand could have the cure for the Drahk virus.

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But why would they want to give it to Earth?

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We would have to find some raw material that the aliens want.

I haven't thought about this, but it's interesting to think about the Hand as having an important role in the Crusade story. Anyway, A call to Arms takes place in 2267 while Rangers is two years before.
So, both arcs could intersect somewhere between 2268 and 2272.
JMS has thought about 1000 years, I honestly believe... given Great Maker's powers.

It is true that the advanced aliens in both ADitS and AVftG were never explained, nor were they returned to in any way..at least, not yet.

JMS saying he has things mapped out in detail, usually means...well, in detail. Which means any villian, any baddie, any good guy, any ally is already known to JMS. While minor elements may change due to new ideas, actors comings and goings, etc., the overall picture is planned.

Therefore, each of these races, whomever they may be and whatever their role is in the B5 universe, are planned. We, however, do not know the plan so have no way of knowing how they might fit in or who they may ultimately turn out to be.

My whole point to the idea of linking the TS aliens to the Hand was merely a mental exercise, and to point out that those who've complained that the Hand was just something new made up by JMS for LotR to be a big baddie (thus saying JMS is repeating himself and has no new ideas) that they're wrong.

"In detail" leaves very little wiggle room, folks.

And remember something once said (which ep. I cannot recall right now): "The war is never over."

There's always another bad guy out there. Only JMS knows who they are, what importance they play, how big a role they play, and who they may ultimately turn out to be.

CE

And I also believe JMS when he states that he has the universe detailed 1000 years in either direction, BUT, I also believe that that does not mean that those 1000 years are static. He may get a new idea, "Hmmm, how about me putting a race called The Hand HERE" and just change the future/history.

So if The Hand are not as bad as they claim, there are only small ripples in JMSs universe, and if they are, there may be more.

Just my 0.02 SEK (about 0.14 cent)

/IamS

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Sort of what Gene Rodenberry did in the ST Universe.
The difference was that JMS always said that he wanted to tell the story we all saw in the show and that was it.

But, just in case, he planned 1000 years in the past and in the future.

I'm not be surprised if we still see many bad guys races, should the B5 franchise survives.

And he may very well fit them in the same timeline of the shows, just like Enterprise.

And besides we're not half as pickies as the trekkies.


Almir

And I also believe JMS when he states that he has the universe detailed 1000 years in either direction, BUT, I also believe that that does not mean that those 1000 years are static. He may get a new idea, "Hmmm, how about me putting a race called The Hand HERE" and just change the future/history.

So if The Hand are not as bad as they claim, there are only small ripples in JMSs universe, and if they are, there may be more.

Just my 0.02 SEK (about 0.14 cent)

/IamS

Click to expand...

Sort of what Gene Rodenberry did in the ST Universe.
The difference was that JMS always said that he wanted to tell the story we all saw in the show and that was it.

But, just in case, he planned 1000 years in the past and in the future.

I'm not be surprised if we still see many bad guys races, should the B5 franchise survives.

And he may very well fit them in the same timeline of the shows, just like Enterprise.

And besides we're not half as pickies as the trekkies.


Almir

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You're right, we're actually twice as picky, since JMS has spoiled us, LOL

And I also believe JMS when he states that he has the universe detailed 1000 years in either direction, BUT, I also believe that that does not mean that those 1000 years are static. He may get a new idea, "Hmmm, how about me putting a race called The Hand HERE" and just change the future/history.

So if The Hand are not as bad as they claim, there are only small ripples in JMSs universe, and if they are, there may be more.

Just my 0.02 SEK (about 0.14 cent)

/IamS

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Sort of what Gene Rodenberry did in the ST Universe.
[...]

Almir

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Maybe I'm steering this thread away from on-topicness, but I don't understand what you mean.

You mean that first it was the Klingons, then the Romulans and then the Cardassians? Not being a fan of any Star Trek incarnation, but having seen quite a few (most?) episodes of each, I didn't know that there was a plan to change.

Was there?

/IamS

Maybe I'm steering this thread away from on-topicness, but I don't understand what you mean.

You mean that first it was the Klingons, then the Romulans and then the Cardassians? Not being a fan of any Star Trek incarnation, but having seen quite a few (most?) episodes of each, I didn't know that there was a plan to change.

Was there?

/IamS

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No. I didn't see many episodes of TNG, DS9 or Voyager, but I'm pretty sure that they never heard of Xindi, nor about an attack on Earth that killed 7 million people.
As for Gene, there are races that appeared in later series that never appeared in TOS.
But I think all this is OK.
In B5 timeline we have very few contenders and their story on it's context, has been told.
To expand this universe we definetly going to need new contenders, if we have new shows in the future.



Almir

ST creates or destroys villians and enemies as it's convenient and whenever they want to. It's one of their biggest problems.

B5 is mapped out in detail 1000 yrs in either direction. Which means any enemies we see were already planned in detail by JMS. 2000 yrs is a lot of ground to cover, so, no, we haven't seen but a portion of it.

My point is that each enemy we see, has already been planned and is not a willy-nilly, we-need-a-new-bad-guy (a la Trek) creation.

CE

I don't think it's so bad to expand on a universe in future time (IE: Spinoff series, books, movies, etc) by adding something tht was never there, I can accept it just never came up or whatever. Sure it makes it more exciting if you can look at the Pilot episode or S1 of the initial series, and when something is added in, (in a future incarnation of the universe) and be able to say, "Oh, this was foreshadowed in S1 Ep2.

Things like the Xindi, who were obviously a very big deal (and will probably be wiped out by the "reset switch") I can totally see your point.

I do agree with you that JMS has it all planned out, but if he wants to throw in a new species later, that doesn't affect what's gone before, I have no problem with that.