EA Rep for the ISA?

I was just wondering if anyone ever specified who the Earth represenitive to the ISA was? They never (showed any human other then Sheridan in the "council chamber" representing Earths interests...and I assume he would not have been the choice of EarthGov. Was it Lochley? I was kinda under the impression she just ran the station, she never showed up in the "chambers", at least not that i ever saw to speak up for Earth? so who was the Earth Rep to the ISA at B5?

The issue was never addressed in the show.

Interesting question, to say the least. I dn't think it would be wise to have an EarthGove rep (or a Minbari rep). It would just piss all the other races off. "Two humans!!! If they get two, we get two!"

Besides, Sheridan is sorta an Earth rep. He's a member of Earth, although I wouldn't say he represented Earthgov. We just never got to see any major situations concerning Earthgov in season 5. The only think I can think of is when Sherdian talks to Delenn about a joint Earth/Minbari ship building project. Sheridan said he had talked to the Earthgov President. Perhaps that means he does represent Earth.

And Lochley was not a rep, she was simply captain of B5. There was even a line, where Sheridan said somethin like, "If it concerns the Alliance it's my territory, anything else is yours."

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We're all born as molecules in the hearts of a billion stars, molecules that do not understand politics, policies and differences. In a billion years we, foolish molecules forget who we are and where we came from. Desperate acts of ego. We give ourselves names, fight over lines on maps. And pretend our light is better than everyone else's. The flame reminds us of the piece of those stars that live inside us. A spark that tells us: you should know better. The flame also reminds us that life is precious, as each flame is unique. When it goes out, it's gone forever. And there will never be another quite like it

I wondered that too ... but the points above are valid that the other races might not want two of one represented race at a time, giving what would seem like an unfair advantage ... especially with out often the Drazi and a few others wanted to pick a fight and claim unfairness. Though Sheriden, as both President and a former renegede from Earth, doesn't seem the best candidate for the EA's interests. Maybe the two cancel each other out: an Earther president might favor Humans in the ISA, but knowing the same Earther went up against his own government for the betterment of the people of all races let's that fact slide by ... Wonder what happened when Delenn because president ...

Also I found it a bit odd that Sinclair or Sheriden were part of the Advisory Council given that the other four were actual diplomatic ambassadors. I guess after building the station, EA couldn't afford a military leader to run the station and a diplomat to talk to the others.

And Mars was now an independent nation and if I recall right, a member of the ISA. Where was the Martian representative?

At least B5 politics isn't as confusiong as Star Trek. A poly sci friend of mine and I had a long discussion on how the Federation Senate can work and all it ended up with was creating a bunch of oppressed and unrepresented "Mars" planets or species unequality, heh.

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The possibility that Captain Lochley is a representative of Earth is not unacceptable. Remember the whole point of choosing her in the first place for commanding B5 was that she was basically on the other side of the war, yet avoided direct combat with the Rebel fleet. And as Commanding officer of Babylon 5, the seat of the ISA at the time, of course she would have to take notice of the comings and goings of the ISA.

By the way, when they say Mars is an independent government, they didn't mean Mars is cut out of the Earth Alliance completely. Remember Mars was controled with an iron fist by EarthGov and its citizens never had any real rights. It's liberation merely meant Earth by itself no longer has the right to place taxes, plant a planetory governor, and especially plant a garrison to keep the Mars born humans in line.

In a way, the Mars liberation made them a true member of the Earth Alliance. An alliance is a mutual treaty to help each other. Its previous state certainly wasn't an alliance, it was a colony. A slave colony at worst. Now they're free to do what they like, including dealing with they're Earth brethren on even ground, rather than Earth dictating everything.

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May the light of the Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha protect you.

May you all be well and happy, free from suffering, free from sickness.

From what I understand, whoever is in charge of running B5 or that person's second in command is the EA rep. In season 1 that would be Sinclair and then Ivanova. Then in season 2 and up until B5 broke away from Earth in season 3, it was Sheridan, then Ivanova. Then in season 5, it was never really addressed whether B5 remained an independent state or rejoined the EA. If they did rejoin the EA, then it would probably have been Lochley.

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Dulann: You don't solve your problems by hitting them.
David Martel: Yeah, well, it made me feel better.

[This message has been edited by RW7427 (edited February 17, 2002).]

In Crusade, it seemed that Lochley was not just the station commander but also the Earth diplomatic rep on the station (at least that's the way it looked to me in, say, Rules of the Game).

But of course, the station wasn't quite important for diplomacy by that time anymore as the ISA headquarters had moved to Minbar, and, I assume, most of the big diplomatic decisions were made there.

BTW, a bit off-topic here - did Minbar keep diplomatic presence on B5 after Delenn & Sheridan moved away? While we know that Vir became Centauri's ambassador and Ta'Lon the Narns' representative, I can't recall Delenn "giving over the job". I assume though that it just took place either off-screen or simply later, after a while.

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"There are things out there beyond imagination, and I have a rather healthy imagination." - G'Kar, B5: Rangers
Kribu's Lounge | kribu@ranger.b5lr.com | Kribu.net

wow, thank for the response! I always did wonder too about the Military gov of B5 being the diplomatic envoy from Earth at the same time. I bet JMS didn't want to spend the budget on another actor or maybe just didn't want to spend the time to create another character. Although it does seem that Ivanova tended to handle the day to day ops of the station, while Sinclair and Sheridan handled the diplomatic stuff. Anyway, when it comes down to it, it seems as though the ISA "security council" i forgot what they really called the council of Delenn, G'Kar, Londo and Sheridan made all the real decisions of the ISA with out much input from the other races ambassadors anyway, so maybe the Earth Rep was not as important as one might think. Its not like the Govt of the EA with a senate... rather the ISA govt seems to be made up of the "security council" making all the big decisions and informing the member govt's of those decisons. so having a rep at the station...or later on Minbar may not really be all that important anyway.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by bakana:

After all, there is certain to be some resentment over the way Sheridan & Delenn blackmailed Earth into the ISA in the first place.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'd hardly call it blackmail. For one, it got Sheridan outta Earth's sight. Earthgov was troubled with what to do with him, that got solved.

For being in the Alliance, Earth is now getting access to new technologies.

It's not like Sheridan and Delenn said, "Join the alliance or we're gonna do something bad." They offered Earth a viable soltuion to the Sheridan problem



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We're all born as molecules in the hearts of a billion stars, molecules that do not understand politics, policies and differences. In a billion years we, foolish molecules forget who we are and where we came from. Desperate acts of ego. We give ourselves names, fight over lines on maps. And pretend our light is better than everyone else's. The flame reminds us of the piece of those stars that live inside us. A spark that tells us: you should know better. The flame also reminds us that life is precious, as each flame is unique. When it goes out, it's gone forever. And there will never be another quite like it

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>It's not like Sheridan and Delenn said, "Join the alliance or we're gonna do something bad." They offered Earth a viable soltuion to the Sheridan problem
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You obviously didn't look closely at the expression on President Luchenko's face when they made their Offer.
Or pay attention to the General's attitude when he came to get Sheridan from the conference room.
Talk about Pissed!
They were planning to screw him Royally as soon as the publicity died down.

Then, there was that flyover by the Whitestars.
Don't EVER believe that was anything but a very pointed reminder of just Who had the better fleet.

And, as for "or we're gonna do something bad" what do you consider withholding all that nice Vorlon Tech if Earth DIDN'T join the alliance??

There was some Serious arm twisting going on there.
If Luchenko had said "NO" to their offer, she'd have been Crucified in the next election and she knew it.
Her political opponents would have made Certain of it.

I recognize Blackmail when I see it.

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Do not ascribe your own motivations to others:
At best, it will break your heart.
At worst, it will get you dead."

[This message has been edited by bakana (edited February 18, 2002).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR> I always did wonder too about the Military gov of B5 being the diplomatic envoy from Earth at the same time. I bet JMS didn't want to spend the budget on another actor or maybe just didn't want to spend the time to create another character. Although it does seem that Ivanova tended to handle the day to day ops of the station, while Sinclair and Sheridan handled the diplomatic stuff. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, it's pretty close to how ambassadors work in real life.
B5 is an Earth Station.
The Other worlds send an Ambassador to meet with Earth but Earth wouldn't station an Ambassdor on their Own territory.
That's why, when Sinclair is appointed Ambassador to Minbar, he Goes to Minbar.

Ambassdors to the US meet with US govt. reps from the US State Dept. in Washington.
US Ambasadors to Other countries are stationed In Those Countries.

The Earth Ambassdor to the Centauri does His business on the Centauri Homeworld.

B5 gets a special set of ambassadors because B5 was set up to make it Easier for the various ambassadors to meet, not just with Earth, but with each other.
The station is an experiment in that it allows One Ambassdor to represent his/her homeworld to Many races all in one place.

Kinda like what goes on at the UN.

Oh, a thought about why we don't see an Earth Rep at council meetings during the 5th season: EarthGov may be dragging their feet about appointing someone to the spot.
After all, there is certain to be some resentment over the way Sheridan & Delenn blackmailed Earth into the ISA in the first place.



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Do not ascribe your own motivations to others:
At best, it will break your heart.
At worst, it will get you dead."

To answer Kribu's question, it was never really stated whether the Minbari were sending a replacement for Delenn after she and Sheridan went to Minbar to live. I would assume that they did not because now that the ISA was headquartered on Minbar, anyone wanting to do business with the Minbari in any political way would have to go to Minbar to do it.

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Dulann: You don't solve your problems by hitting them.
David Martel: Yeah, well, it made me feel better.

Bakana, you miss the point.

OF course they were pissed, because they didn't get what they had wanted. But what they got was a good deal. I don't call agood deal blackmail

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We're all born as molecules in the hearts of a billion stars, molecules that do not understand politics, policies and differences. In a billion years we, foolish molecules forget who we are and where we came from. Desperate acts of ego. We give ourselves names, fight over lines on maps. And pretend our light is better than everyone else's. The flame reminds us of the piece of those stars that live inside us. A spark that tells us: you should know better. The flame also reminds us that life is precious, as each flame is unique. When it goes out, it's gone forever. And there will never be another quite like it

The ISA used leverage to get what it wanted. I wouldn't call it blackmail.

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"I was free to wallow in my own crapulence." -Mr. Burns in "Who Shot Mr. Burns Part Two"

I didn't miss the point.

I just call things Blackmail when I see someone being Forced to accept a "deal" they didn't get to Negotiate.

The fact that Earth got something Good out of it is irrelevant. Sheridan and Delenn didn't give Luchenko and EarthForce a Choice.

And, just because it was "Good" doesn't mean they wouldn't have turned it down out of Spite if given A Choice.
Politicians can be Very Pigheaded when their delicate little Egos have been bruised.



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Do not ascribe your own motivations to others:
At best, it will break your heart.
At worst, it will get you dead."

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>The fact that Earth got something Good out of it is irrelevant. Sheridan and Delenn didn't give Luchenko and EarthForce a Choice.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually it isn't quite as simple as that. They did have a choice - they could have said "No". However as previously pointed out, they would have lost out on obtaining new technology, which as we know Earth was very interested in.

There is a huge difference between genuinely having "no choice", and choosing your least preferred option because you can't afford to choose the other.

For example, I am certain that when the UK is dragged kicking and screaming into the Euro, it will not be because it wants to, but because it recognises the significant disadvantages it will have to face if it stays out forever.

A similar case of "No choice".

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DaveC
"Somebody gulped. You were supposed to sip not gulp!"

Blackmail is extorting something in exchange for silence. The Earth government was put under pressure to accept the deal. The two things are worlds apart. The first is a crime and the second is good business.

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"I was free to wallow in my own crapulence." -Mr. Burns in "Who Shot Mr. Burns Part Two"

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR> Black·mail
Pronunciation: 'blak-"mAl
Function: noun
Etymology: black + mail
Date: 1552
1 : a tribute anciently exacted on the Scottish border by freebooting chiefs for immunity from pillage
2 a : extortion or coercion by threats especially of public exposure or criminal prosecution
b : the payment that is extorted
- blackmail transitive verb
- black·mail·er noun

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

2a: extortion or coercion by threats
is what applies here.
And that is NOT good business.
That may be the Micro$oft way of doing business, but that's why M$ is spending so much time in Court fighting off lawsuits.

Good Business is when Both sides of a negotiation are Equally satisfied (or unhappy as the case may be) with the deal.

EarthGov and President Luchenko were NOT happy. Sheridan & Delenn were very happy with the deal.

It conforms to all the requirements for Blackmail, even if the Good Guys did it.

Cops blackmail Criminals all the time.
We call it "plea bargaining".



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Do not ascribe your own motivations to others:
At best, it will break your heart.
At worst, it will get you dead."

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by bakana:
I just call things Blackmail when I see someone being Forced to accept a "deal" they didn't get to Negotiate.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Earth did get a chance to negotiate, they just totally messed it up. Sheridan came to see them but they locked him up. They assumed that only they had decisions to make, his views were unimportant. They did not ask him what he wanted or what he was selling.

Nor did they look into his background. A journalist on any one of the ISA planets would have picked up that Sheridan was creating the ISA, a spy should have picked up that Sheridan was going to be its President.

President Luchenko and General Foote were not just dealing with a petitioner off the street. They were dealing with the man who had just got rid of the previous President. Something he has done once, he can do again. A very dangerous man. This is a man that she should have been calling SIR.

By breaking practically all the rules of negotiation, Earth's rulers ended up getting what Sheridan decided to give them rather than what they wished for.

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Andrew Swallow

Sheridan had boundries to play into also. If he went around demanding earth gov did this and that, he'd probably loose alot of support and alot of his power.

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>RW7427 said
Then in season 5, it was never really addressed whether B5 remained an independent state or rejoined the EA. If they did rejoin the EA, then it would probably have been Lochley. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sheridan told Lochley that Babylon 5 was not rejoining Earth Alliance. Placing her to run the place was like saying 'we are not forgetting where we came from'. So I'm thinking that B5 remained a separate political entity from Earth Alliance. I think the episode this was addressed in was the first one, "No Compromises."



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