Vorlons or Shadows?

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Babylon-ocholic:
Vorlons are still sexier.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

But Shadows have all of those lovely eyes.


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There are beings in the universe billions of years older than either of our races. Once, long ago, they walked among the stars like giants. Vast, timeless...

We have tenticles!

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Martin: "I should have brought my gun."
Debi: "What?!"
Martin: "Should be fun!" - Grosse Pointe Blank
Slappy's Solar System!

ok i only read the first reply and the last 5 replies because this is a rather large forum and i do not have the time to tread all 41 i believe, so feel free to tell me what i missed. anyway down to the topic!

The age old question, who is tougher the Vorlons or the Shadows. Now as with any question one must look at the facts. One fact which still eludes myself is who is older, i feel is must only be a few hundred years differance as they are close together at techology, but i have found facts from both sides. Anyway back to the subjuct, the Shadows prefer to get envolved themselved in these great wars, fight everybody, then when they start loosing they bring in there allies, in the latest shadow war, which ended everything they would have brought in teh Might Centaur Republic and the Earth Alliance, ( this war had so much potencial i'm almost upset that they had to end it ). Whereas the Vorlons make an alliance of nations that can stand up to the shadows together, and thus not risk any vorlons in the fight. The Vorlons also plan ahead, they carefully plan their strategy, and work in a way where the enemy doesn't realize what they did till is was to late and thus lost the war, a good example of this would be the Earth Minbari war, remember how they stopped that war, very effective. This has helped the vorlons defeat the shadows in most of the wars, the shadows act on the moment, and have one wars doing the opposite, that being if something happened that the vorlons did not plan on, it takes the vorlons time to decide on a new course of action, which could often times be to late. This is how they interact with the younger races, now to the question who is tougher.

The Vorlons are most likely are, they'll see the war coming before the shadows do , and make a plan of suck magnitude that the shadows will be defeated. Also the Vorlons are condidered to have the strongest ship in the known univerese. This could give the Vorlons a techology advantage over the shadows. But you cant keep the shadows out, the excell at creating chaos, and they do it very well every thousand years. Simply put i believe it would come down to making the other races fight on their behalf like the great wars have in the past, and as the shadows prefer to get envolved directly when the fleets of the galaxy are all war torne the fresh vorlon fleet will come in and take everybody out. But in final statements, i cannot say.
The sad part is that if sheridan and lorien didnt stop the war we would have seen. That war final reached it's peak and the Vorlons were going to have the final war there period. The last great war would have seen who is really the stronger race. the last great war allmost became it as well, remember the only survivor of that war besides the vorlons and shadows were the Minbari. To simply put it, we would have seen who is tougher if the party poopers known as Sheridon and Lorien didn't step in and stop it.

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you cannot make history, only hope to survive it.

It seems to me... that some considerations may have indeed been missed.

I think that making the younger races fight for them... was symbolic. Even all of the younger races united... would have had no chance.

In the past wars, they never used their most devastating weapons. The Shadows used their cheap and numerous battlecrabs, and played ambitious parties against each other. The Vorlons created telepaths, supported alliances and gave technology. In the end, the Shadows were always "driven away". They disappeared, but always came back.

The last war "opened an unexpected door". With little more than pure luck, Sheridan managed to strike Z'ha'dum. Believing to have gained an advantage, the Vorlons decided to finish it. Once and for all. They brought out the planetkillers and set their policy to be "everything touched must die".

To make it more unfortunate, the Shadows didn't consider themselves hurt. They have a habit of recovering quickly, and never making mistakes twice. They too mobilized and prepared to end it. Once and for all. A few days after the Vorlon planetkillers made their first strikes, Shadow planetkillers resoponded with the same.

And still, they were not fighting each other. Still they tried to keep their own hides intact. I suspect that if they had directly fought each other, the war would have consumed not only planets but stars, and created sectors of the galaxy completely empty of life. Countless worlds would have been infected with plagues, burnt by radiation, crushed into nothingness or otherwise destroyed.

Nobody knows who would have won. But one fact was clear: had they fought directly and to the last, most of the younger races would not have survived.

[This message has been edited by Lennier (edited February 18, 2002).]

making the younger races fight each other was the shadows idea, the vorlons wanted order, not war. And yes the younger races could make a differance in a war between the shadows and vorlons. If you have two people fighting eachother, and one of them had a little kid biting ankle's and such, that extra little factor will win the fight. The Vorlons and Shadows are very evenely matched, the smallest factor can make a difference. pure luck on hitting zha'adoom you say, then my friend i would suggest you read the techno mage books (by favorite series of books ever writen too).


<table bgcolor=black><tr><td bgcolor=black><font size=1 color=white>Spoiler:</font></td></tr><tr><td><font size=2 color=black> Galen was at the heart of the planets defences, he was able to have no defences stop the ship, thats hardly luck in my opinion. </font></td></tr></table>

Let me think, what else did you say??? There big weapons, think about it for a second, the planet killers for example were just created in the last thousand years, i remind you that the vorlons made it because they knew they may have a chance to strike at the shadows in the next war do too Babylon-4, and of course the shadows did the same because they knew the Vorlons were building them. Oh yeah just for the record the Vorlons only had 2 Planet killers. When describing the younger races compared to the Vorlons and Shadows, i thing JMS said it best, i believe it was something along the lines of enough little things together can take out the biggest of things. My personal opinion is that all the younger races together would amount to the power of maybe one quarter at most, but along those lines 125% would most likely win against just 100%.

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you cannot make history, only hope to survive it.

i still say vorlons

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I have read the mage trilogy. I would think that for Sheridan, Galen being there was little more than pure luck. Even for Galen, finding a way to crash the Eye was not instantly obvious.

As for the Vorlons being all nice and cuddly... well, nice and cuddly creatures do not use serial killers as their inquisitors. Neither do they abduct people to genetically modify them into weapons (telepaths).

Forced peace is not peace, and forced alliances are not alliances. If peace forms, it must form because people wanted it. If alliances are made, they must be made because you wanted them.

Vorlon attempts at creating order created resentment. Shadows provided the means to express that resentment. Just like Shadow attempts at creating chaos created resentment, and Vorlons provided the means to express that resentment.

Both interfered in the natural development of things, choosing who to ask their questions, which answers to accept. Both were flawed. Flawed and very powerful. The probability of the younger races being a deciding factor... does not exist in terms of raw power.

In other terms, it does exist. The younger races were a deciding factor -- as they involved other First Ones and brought the opponents to consider what was happening.

In terms of fighting, they could have just as easily not existed. I suspect that one Shadow planetkiller could have easily destroyed all of their fleet (as it almost did) and the Shadows can build (grow) planetkillers rather quickly. Even the Eye was up and running (in some form) mere weeks after it had been destroyed.

[This message has been edited by Lennier (edited February 19, 2002).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR> I have read the mage trilogy. I would think that for Sheridan, Galen being there was little more than pure luck. Even for Galen, finding a way to crash the Eye was not instantly obvious. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

your right alot of luck is at play here, but then again the right people were there to make is work, how much luck was really envolved, just think about it for a minute???

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR> As for the Vorlons being all nice and cuddly... well, nice and cuddly creatures do not use serial killers as their inquisitors. Neither do they abduct people to genetically modify them into weapons (telepaths).

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wouldn't you like to sleep with a vorlon at night??? Anyway their ability to see the logic behind why someone did their actions, and then munipulate them to do a more suited position makes them bad? They saw usefullness where other people would see hatred, for this there bad? Modify people into weapons, yeah they did do that, to give the races a fighting chance against the shadows. Remember the last war only one race servived, the minbari. They gave them a gift with, what happened to them because of there goverment, they cannot entirely be blamed for, but there ultimate use was as weapons against the shadows in the upcoming war, you are correct there, or did they give them a fighting chance?

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR> Forced peace is not peace, and forced alliances are not alliances. If peace forms, it must form because people wanted it. If alliances are made, they must be made because you wanted them. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

How did the vorlons force alliances?? They supported alliances that is all. They wanted order.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR> Vorlon attempts at creating order created resentment. Shadows provided the means to express that resentment. Just like Shadow attempts at creating chaos created resentment, and Vorlons provided the means to express that resentment. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Just a reminder, other then the times of the shadow war, the vorlons are pretty much non existant when it comes to galactic affairs. Did you hear any opposition from the Vorlons during the Dilgar War, Narn Occupation, Orieni War, and many other? So how can there be resentment for stuff the Vorlons did not do, most peope barely knew anything about them. People fighting for chaos did not know they were doing it to go against the Vorlons, or did they know the shadows gave them the means to do it, Remember the Shadows and Vorlons munipulated what was happening not, come out in theopen and told them what to do. After the last war was over and they saw there true colors they understand what was happening and may resent them for it, but then there's no more Vorlons or shadows to allow them to vent there rebellion against each other.

Basically yes, you're mostly right as military goes the Younger races would not have much to do, unless used correclty, could a death cloud get to them with the vorlons stopping is, and vice versa, Military verses Military the Younger races would be destroyed without a fight, used properly and strategically which includes everything from intelligence, military, economy, and ect.. they can still be of help, especially in such a stalemate. But yes say Shadows verses all the younger races no contect for sure.

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you cannot make history, only hope to survive it.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>So how can there be resentment for stuff the Vorlons did not do, most peope barely knew anything about them.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

A good question.

While the Shadows liked to make deals, to provide favours... the Vorlons never worked that way. Even with their allies in need, Vorlon policy would have been to refuse assistance. In that sense, Kosh was an exception.

Of people being assisted by Shadows... how many knew where the support came from? Technomages were unaware about their implants. Londo didn't know who retreived the Eye. Neither did he know who destroyed the Narn colony. He knew that he was trading expensive favours. He knew that he was being manipulated, but never knew who those "associates" were.

People used by Vorlons never knew they were manipulated. Telepaths never knew who created them. Expeditions to Vorlon space never learned who killed them (or captured them for returning with modifications, and perhaps half a Vorlon in their head). I wonder how many such people acted differently, worked for the Vorlon cause without ever knowing.

How many would have chosen differently, had they not been tricked or forced? Very few. Very few were treated as sentient beings. Most were treated as tools. Appearing as figures commanding awe and respect (and thoughts, should that be necessary) the Vorlons prevented choices and suppressed doubts.

The Shadows asked their question, never trying to suppress doubts. They simply asked people to consider what was important... what they truly wanted. They played desires against each other. Many would suffer or die, but many would succeed in reaching their goals.

Vorlons worked differently. For them, who you were decided everything. Even what you wanted. They never cared to ask, never doubted if people wanted to do their bidding.

They were equally destructive. They closed opportunities and prevented choices. They forced people to be something which they were not. To do something they never wanted.

Hence I deem them equally flawed. Both kept their game going when they should have left. Only due events unexpected to them, people more informed and determined than they expected... only due to factors beyond their control and differences among their own ranks... only due to that could the cycle be broken.

[This message has been edited by Lennier (edited February 20, 2002).]

The shadows are undeniably older than the Vorlons, but whether or not that works out into being more powerful is another matter. If both are of eqaual power or near equal power, then I'd have to go with the shadows.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR> Remember the last war only one race survived, the Minbari. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not true. Other races survived.
Some of them were so badly damaged that they are still recovering.
Some Humans just haven't MET so far.
It's a BIG Galaxy.
The Minbari had the most Advanced Tech of those who survived and never lost their Space capability.

Some of the other races who survived may also have made the mistake of Annoying the Minbari since then.
Remember the race that kidnapped Sheridan?
The Minbari showed them "the Error of their ways" once before.
Races like that didn't show up at Babylon 5.

You're also neglecting the Shadow servant races with that assertion.
The Drakh for instance.

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Do not ascribe your own motivations to others:
At best, it will break your heart.
At worst, it will get you dead."

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR> The shadows are undeniably older than the Vorlons, but whether or not that works out into being more powerful is another matter. If both are of eqaual power or near equal power, then I'd have to go with the shadows. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

how do you know this? The main referace to this is the story the Vorlons told the younger races to make them believe the shadows are evil. Also remember that the Vorlons once saw themselves next to god, hense thirdspace. I'm just saying you can base this information on statements you cant know for sure, if you have a true source, then i thank you.

The strieb is a race that came after the last war, the shadows servants were destroyed in the last war, the drawk are only a little older then the Centauri, they used to be an empire till they dissapeared. The other races that survived the war were bombed back to the stone age, or infostucture was so destroyed that they callapsed on themselves, and thus taking them out of the galactic seen. Fact is The Minbari are the only survivors, they did take some of these races as protectorates though, but they should be considered apart of the Minbari now.

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you cannot make history, only hope to survive it.

The Drakh have been hinted at being far older than the Centauri. Already the first Technomages (1000 years ago) did extensive research about the Drakh.

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"We are the universe, trying to figure itself out.
Unfortunately we as software lack any coherent documentation."
-- Delenn

True but the fact of the matter is that little is still known about the drawk. We know that their old, and are servants of the shadows, and that they are older then the Centouri, that is about all we know about there age.

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you cannot make history, only hope to survive it.

weren't the drahk actually technomages before they went off to the "dark side"?

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"I am Grey. I stand between the candle and the star. We are Grey. We stand between the darkness and the light. I come to take the place that has been prepared for me"
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the present becomes the past, the past becomes history, history becomes legend, legend becomes myth, myth becomes obscurity! please pass the flarn!

Interesting question.

<dim lightbulb>
Vorlons = NFL Offense
Shadows = NFL Defense

Both are fast & strong. But, the Vorlons know what the next play will be. The Shadows have to stop that play from working. They don't have to win, just have to keep the Vorlons from scoring a touchdown.
</dim lightbulb>

Maybe that doesn't work as well as it sounded in my head *need more caffeine for brain to work*.

I think it will be interesting to see what happens with "The Hand" as introduced in B5LR. Something to the effect of they make the Shadows look like insects...now that's impressive...Summo Wrestler v. Featherweight?

Well, I've stuck my foot in my mouth enough times today...back to work I go .

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USPTO - Where I work.
Stanley Associates - Who I work for.
UD Cancer Agent

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>

"They say: 'the Shadows were our masters. We served them, believed in them, loved them. Then they went away and left us behind to escape on our own. But without our masters .. who are we? In the end .. what are we but ..' "

"A shadow .. of a shadow. An echo of what was. Our home, Z'ha'dum, destroyed. We .. wandered. Then we remembered .. this place. We remembered .. you."

Regent and Drakh to Londo in Babylon 5:"The Fall of Centauri Prime" <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


The Drakh have been servants of the Shadows long enough to be allowed to Live with them.

When the Drakh are first mentioned to Londo by Sheridan, he remarks that they have not been heard of in Many Years.
They are a "tale to frighten children."
And if they are back, it is Very BAD.



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Do not ascribe your own motivations to others:
At best, it will break your heart.
At worst, it will get you dead."

Hello all. Even though I've posted before (twice) I want to say again that I really enjoy this forum when I get the chance to drop by.

On this discussion (Vorlons or Shadows), I always thought that they must be pretty balanced, if for no other reason than they must be fairly well aquainted with each other's technology. Since this was a philosophical debate gone bad, it would seem to me that there's an implication that they were once much closer. They "grew old" together and must have known each other well. Also the rules of their game would probably keep them trying to stay in balance as mutual deterence to breaking the rules.

With regards to the books being 100% canon as was mentioned earlier, JMS noted:

Quote:
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As to something that adds to the canon, that tends to be something that I
generate, as with the B5 trilogies from Del Rey. They are canonical in the
broad strokes, though it's impossible to ride every single small detail and get
anything done on any kind of reasonable schedule.
------------

The full message can be found at www.jmsnews.com in a 2/13/2000 post titled:
ATTN JMS: Part of canon or just licensed?

This would make me hesitate to use the books as source material for debating ship sepcifications.

Food for thought...


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"Tastes like chicken." -- Mack

Superbob, no. To tell you why would be delving into spoilers for the technomage trilogy.

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"I was free to wallow in my own crapulence." -Mr. Burns in "Who Shot Mr. Burns Part Two"