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B5: TMOS - Economic Viability & Related Topics

Chris Springob wrote:

As I said when posting on this same topic a few months ago, if any actual Europeans want to correct my understanding of B5 fandom in Europe, please do so. ;)

From my own experience, I'd say that in Sweden Star Trek is about 10 or 20 times, or even more!, as popular as Babylon 5. :( :confused:

/IamS
 
I'm not saying that "American SF TV shows are less popular in Southern Europe than in Northern Europe" is the only possible explanation, but there's got to be some reason why there's such a discrepancy.

But you're trying to estimate interest in the show based on internet traffic, which is probably one of the least accurate measures you could use. When B5 was in production its internet presence in the U.S. and U.K. was out of all proportion to the audience size as measured by the ratings. There were probably more and more heavily trafficked websites and discussion groups devoted to B5 at the time than to Trek - because the B5 audience tended to be younger (remember all those paleo-Trek fans from my generation who latched onto that show and never looked at any other SF - they weren't on the web, by and large in 1994.) B5 fans also tended to be more tech-savvy and to operate outside the "SF fandom establishment", which was largely in the hands of hostile Trek fans on the more commercial side, and in the hands of literary snobs hostile to all television on the more academic side. So they found other channels of communication. If you'd judge B5 and the Trek shows solely on internet traffic you would have concluded that B5 was far and away the more popular universe.

One fairly simple explanation is that really large-scale organized SF fandom is largely an invention of the English-speaking nations, and until fairly recently has been pretty much limited to those nations - and spread fastest to countries like Germany and France. Mass communication tools like cheap photocopiers and mimeo machines (the original media of fandom) and later the internet also tended to come to the more prosperous north of Europe first, which helped spread fandom even more. There may be tons of B5 fans in southern Europe who simply aren't aware of one another and who therefore aren't making a lot of noise for us to notice. If you're the only one in your school or town who ever watches B5, you might assume that the same is true everywhere and not bother looking for websites. Or, given that the vast majority of B5 sites are based in the U.S. or the U.K., you might be kept away because you don't read or speak English, or because you don't think your English is good enough.

That said I suspect that B5 merchandise did better in the U.K., where a smaller population allows a comparative small number of people to make a bigger splash in the market place. 5,000,000 B5 fans in the U.K. would be big. In the U.S. it would be a drop in the bucket. (And would get the show cancelled if it were on a major broadcast network rather than in first-run syndication or on cable.) I doubt that the ratings in terms of audience share were ever all that much better outside the U.S. than they were inside. None of which means that I don't think a B5 film can do well. A movie needs fewer tickets sold to be a success than a TV series needs ratings points. The vast majority of folks who have never heard of B5 or who are only vaguely aware of it will go to see it if the trailers and TV spots look interesting, and they'll tell their friends to go see it (and maybe go back a second time themselves) if the film is well-made and they enjoy it. All this business about people not knowing the franchise or the backstory is fanboy paranoia that ignores the fact that probably 80% of the films released every year are not sequels or otherwise parts of franchises that people know, and that those that are based on franchises from other media (X-Men, Superman, Harry Potter) live or die on their merits as films and most of the people who see them will not have ever read the book or the comic book or the TV series they were based on.

If Warner Bros. makes a good film and markets it intelligently (and they avoid any release date disasters like going head-to-head with a probable blockbuster, or open on the day another terrorist attack happens) it will attract an audience and keep doing so. Just like any other film that gets released into the marketplace.

Regards,

Joe
 
Chris Springob, JDM points out a very important point.

You mention about How many people from Italy post on this board (For example). People in Italy speak Italian as their primary language, so, in order to accurately guage your hypothesis, you can't judge by an English speaking site as to how many fans you see posting. You have to look at how many folks are posting on fansites that are in the languages spoken by those countries, plus (Also as JDM has pointed out) you don't have as high a percentage of the population with Internet access in some countries, so again, internet activity you see from a specific country, does not neccessarily reflect the percentage of population in that country who are fans. We can only wait and see what happens. I really would love to see this movie (If that's what it is) be something the hardcore fans will love, and that it explodes worldwide. Imagine if a B5 movie topped the Billion dollar mark, like LotR and HP.
 
Well, I didn't say Spongebob, but I did add an extra "B" in error, my apologies Chris Springob. :cool:

No problem Sindatur. You and JDM raise a couple of good points. You suggest that fandom may be large enough in some other countries that there could be B5 boards in other languages, and so the people who frequent them are "missing" on the English language boards. This is an interesting explanation, and I'm curious as to whether anyone out there knows more about the prevalence of B5 boards in other languages.

JDM makes the same point that I did about how average income is higher in northern Europe than in southern Europe, so there are probably more people with internet access in the north. My only question is, is this effect really big enough to explain the north/south gulf in posters on sites like this? Because the gap is pretty darn wide.

Both of you point out that people are less likely to frequent English language sites if their first language is not English. But doesn't virtually everyone on *continental* Europe have a first language that is not English? So, when comparing between different non-English speaking countries, shouldn't this effect be pretty much a wash?

Again, I'm just throwing out speculation, and invite anyone with alternative explanations to offer their opinion.
 
But doesn't virtually everyone on *continental* Europe have a first language that is not English? So, when comparing between different non-English speaking countries, shouldn't this effect be pretty much a wash?

You have to take both first and second language into account, and look at the size of the mother tongue.
People who speak a widespread language have less reason to learn another language. The British don't use a lot of French, and the French and German don't use a lot of English. (With the exeption of those who spend a lot of time on international forums. But they could find many foreigners who speak their language too. Consider how South America, many African countries, Austria and Switzerland use Spanish, Portugese, French and German)

People from smaller language areas have more use for a second and third language. In northern Europe that is usually English, while it in eastern Europe used to be German or Russian. More countries are now changing over from German and Russian to English as the second language in school.
 
People in smaller countries are far more likely to speak foreign languages (whatever their first, second and third foreign language happens to be - doesn't need to include English) on a fairly good level than people in bigger countries. As Flounder pointed out, people who speak a widespread language don't often really need to learn other ones.

Also, in my personal experience people in the Nordic countries speak English much better in general, as well as on a much wider level, compared to, say, France or Spain. When visiting, you can pretty much rely on getting on by knowing English in any of the Nordic countries, while you certainly can't rely on that in the more Southern parts of Europe. (Not to say there aren't many people there who don't speak English - just that there is a much greater chance of not encountering people speaking English.)

The difference does largely stem from the education system as well - again, as Flounder pointed out, not all of Europe has English as the first foreign language at school. It was the second foreign language for me, and used to be for most of Estonians, having only replaced Russian (as the primary foreign language taught) in the last 10-12 years or so. In much of Europe, the primary foreign language taught can easily be German or French. It's probably indeed changing more towards English in recent years, but learning a language takes a while.

I'd also guess that a lot more people who don't have English as their first language like to *lurk* at English sites/boards. Many, very many people understand English enough to read and follow the conversations, but would not have the skill or confidence to actually post something themselves.
 
You suggest that fandom may be large enough in some other countries that there could be B5 boards in other languages, and so the people who frequent them are "missing" on the English language boards. This is an interesting explanation, and I'm curious as to whether anyone out there knows more about the prevalence of B5 boards in other languages.

Considering how many members, and postings, we have at the Swedish board for Interstellar Alliance, I wouldn't think that there are very many missing from this board. :rolleyes:

Please feel free to follow the links and also post stuff. Unfortunately, the pages are in Swedish, but feel free to post stuff in other languages! :)

/At the IA board, I am Sheridan
 
IAS,

I was just at your site looking to see if JMS's posts made any more sense in swedish, but you posted them in English!

I think that the posts in Swedish look very Vorlon-like, and since I cannot read swedish I am free to imagine that there is a lot of good info there that I simply cannot understand - just as I felt when I heard Kosh speak! :LOL:
 
IAS,

I was just at your site looking to see if JMS's posts made any more sense in swedish, but you posted them in English!

I think that the posts in Swedish look very Vorlon-like, and since I cannot read swedish I am free to imagine that there is a lot of good info there that I simply cannot understand - just as I felt when I heard Kosh speak! :LOL:

:D :D

Thanks for your visit!
I think you can read the forum names, so you just might imagine all the interesting information in them! :)

Have a nice evening,
/Sheridan
 
In a big country location has a big effect on multiple languages. I imagine California, NY, DC have a few more bi-lingual people(not even including immigrants) than say...Nebraska.
 
Thanks for your visit!
I think you can read the forum names, so you just might imagine all the interesting information in them! :)

Have a nice evening,
/Sheridan
Actually, you very nicely made all the web page links in English, so I just have to hold the curser over them and find out what they are.

I don't see a general discussion page, which is where I would fit in. Is there one? If you point me, I will go!

Oh, and you won't have any problems figuring out what my screen name is! :LOL: I am grumbler everywhere I go.
 
You suggest that fandom may be large enough in some other countries that there could be B5 boards in other languages, and so the people who frequent them are "missing" on the English language boards. This is an interesting explanation, and I'm curious as to whether anyone out there knows more about the prevalence of B5 boards in other languages.

A simple search of the Internet will show you that there a tons of international B5 sites, especially in German. I'm a member on the Code 7R board, where we have some bilingual international members. It was really very interesting when the DVDs came out, a lovely German member named Brita wrote in about actually hearing the characters real voices for the first time. Sheridan sounded nothing like what she was expecting, she loved Londo, saying he sounded "like Dracula", and especially Kosh. Apparently, the German dub of Kosh plays without the sound effects. I've also been told by those who have seen both that some foreign translations of the dialogue are really far off from the original English.
 
Actually, you very nicely made all the web page links in English, so I just have to hold the curser over them and find out what they are.

I don't see a general discussion page, which is where I would fit in. Is there one? If you point me, I will go!

It's at the top and is called "General discussions" :)

Oh, and you won't have any problems figuring out what my screen name is! :LOL: I am grumbler everywhere I go.

That's good to know!
But what if it's taken? That's why I added "iam" in front of my usual [B5] nickname. Just in case. I thought there would be hundreds of sheridans around. :)

/But sometimes, I am Sheridan! :cool:
 
That's good to know!
But what if it's taken? That's why I added "iam" in front of my usual [B5] nickname. Just in case. I thought there would be hundreds of sheridans around. :)

[/quote] Not a problem. Of course, you need to get the folks back there to respond to me! :LOL:

Most of those threads were started 3 years ago and abandoned in a coupla weeks. i will try to do what i can to restart the board now that there is action on the B5 front.

Who here is "wishmaster" on the Swedish board?
 
A simple search of the Internet will show you that there a tons of international B5 sites, especially in German.

Yes, but I don't know of an easy way to target all sites of a particular language, or to get a feel for how much traffic each of these sites gets, especially when I don't know the language in question.

Flounder and Kribu bring up the fact that there *are* significant differences within Europe wrt fluency in English. What I'm wondering about though is, are English language TV shows also generally more popular in the places in Europe where there's more widespread fluency in English? Or does dubbing make that pretty much irrelevant?
 

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