Firefly/Serenity from the perspective of a "Feminist."

And I also don't smoke or do hard drugs. But I do other "naughty" things sometimes- how can you not? Scrabble and walks in the park are fine, but ya gotta do some wrong for fun, no?

GKarsEye said:

And I also don't smoke or do hard drugs. But I do other "naughty" things sometimes- how can you not? Scrabble and walks in the park are fine, but ya gotta do some wrong for fun, no?

Click to expand...

Different people have different ideas of fun. Some of the things that are fun for me are self-destructive(hey, I can count myself to the elitist circle of people that have overdosed on marijuana - yes, it is possible), some are not(if I ever start trying to come on to chicks with comparative linguistics, please kill me). I don't find it unconceivable that some people just aren't interested in anything you or me would consider wrong.

Every now and then I have the urge to get drunk and make a fool of myself for a few hours, but beyond that my definition of a good time is sipping -- not chugging -- a decent beverage and chatting with people about cool/interesting/funny things. This means I basically can't go to bars on Friday nights, because I can't hear a word people say, and there's no point in that for me.

I don't do drugs because my brain's a trip and a half all by itself; I don't smoke anything because I've already destroyed my knees and don't want to add my lungs to the list; I don't sleep around because I'm not looking for sex, I'm looking for human contact. This basically reduces my vices to internet porn, and even there I refuse to look at anything involving high heels because I think they're ridiculous and women shouldn't have to wear them.

(Did that last comment get us back on topic? Yeah, didn't think so.)

Ok, so you guys are disagreeing with me than providing examples of "bad" things you do that proves my point anyway, so really we agree. Pot, porn, drinking- these are vices, things we're told are wrong but we do them because we like to have fun. There ya go.

Because, hey, who'd want to party with Ned Flanders, right?

Well .. no. I haven't touched pot since that event 5 years ago - not because I somehow became more uptight that day, but because I simply didn't have the desire anymore. It wasn't some great personality-changing event (though it did leave an impression, of course) ... it just didn't interest me anymore.

I know plenty of people that never had the desire to do this kind of shit in the first place. Why should I judge them for that?

In all honesty, I was thinking about how many people I know (including myself) who had their first sexual "encounter" in college.

I think when GKE said "bad" he definitely meant "frowned upon by some segment of society". And as much as it may not be true all over the world, sex before marriage is still considered "naughty" here in the USA.

GKarsEye said:

Ok, so you guys are disagreeing with me than providing examples of "bad" things you do that proves my point anyway, so really we agree. Pot, porn, drinking- these are vices, things we're told are wrong but we do them because we like to have fun. There ya go.

Because, hey, who'd want to party with Ned Flanders, right?

Click to expand...

I was going to reply again, but what would a douchebag really have to contribute!

hypatia said:

In any event, about the Firefly/Serenity subject: I do need to watch them some day, despite knowing this story went no further. Just look at it as a movie, or series of movies instead of a potential series. I was under the impression that the show was a bit sardonic about everything. Could some women see the characterization of women in it, and think it is negative for that reason? I had the impression the show was fairly good about having a fairly decent variety of characters, female included (though I have heard someone complain the characterizations were a bit stereotypical for modern sci-fi).

Click to expand...

I never thought of the show as "Sardonic." Its tough to describe, but sardonic isn't a word I would use. Its just good fun to watch.

And as far as characterization, all the characters in the show are quite different but each is very likable in their own way. I would conclude the same about the female characters. They are all developed and have different strengths. I wouldn't call them "sterotypical"

I just had a horrible thought: what this essayist would write if she ever saw Starbuck from BSG.

She'd probably say something like "blah blah I'm on the internet blah blah fake controversy blah blah exclamation marks," or the intellectual equivalent.

Yes indeed... never underestimate what an unhealthy desire for self publicity can cause people to write. Now go and read my blog!:devil::beer:

Just kidding about that last part.

The other thing to remember is that sometimes when people are stuck in a particular mindset, they only see what they want to see.

It makes me think of this really good old advert.

Going back and reading the blog that has so offended so many men here, I find myself having to ask, is this part accurate?

The next scene we meet Kaylee, the ship’s mechanic. <- Lookee, lookee, feminist empowerment. In this scene Mal and Jayne are stowing away the cargo they just stole. Kaylee is chatting to them, happily. Jayne asks Mal to get Kaylee to stop being so cheerful. Mal replies, “Sometimes you just wanna duct tape her mouth and dump her in the hold for a month.” Yes, that is an exact quote, “Sometimes you just wanna DUCT TAPE HER MOUTH and DUMP HER IN THE HOLD FOR A MONTH.” Kaylee responds by grinning and giving Mal a kiss on the cheek and saying, “I love my Captain.”

Click to expand...

What exactly was the purpose of this exchange/scene, if it did occur?

And I know you won't like hearing this, but it does sound as if she has a point or two about empowerment issues (a woman clearing renting a shuttle under three express rules, having those rules violated, and still not standing up for her rights while the captain (I assume captain) acts as if hsi agreement should mean nothing.

I had assumed the series to be sardonic, and this would be perhaps the way he treats all his crew? Threatening to duct tape their mouths (which is something many feminists feel has happened to them symbolically for most of history), disrespecting them if they assert themselves with their actual personalities, and agreeing to then violating personal space seemingly at any opportunity.

No, I don't care what a lot of men here think: these really can be seem to be an all-too-familiar "act as we dictate, take our bullshit, or be humiliated and even threatened" (with a good har-har-har, oh where is your sense of humor, of course).

In certain contexts (like the captain is really an ass to everyone) it would certainly make for some sensible plot points. Perhaps the captain is just an asshole to everyone. Maybe he has lost all ability to be sensitive or respectful towards anyone. Maybe this is why I heard that the series was rather sardonic.

I certainly still believe that the blog's writer took things way too far, but please do be honest with yourselves: haven't you taken issues that bring about a lot of emotion too hard yourselves, sometimes? What is particularly frustrating is to see what you consider to be minor (or not so minor) threatening and abuse as normal behavior. It can make you overreact, and even see implications and intent that may not have been there.

Pehaps that's the most frustrating aspect of all: that it's so second nature it isn't even questioned.

So I'll leave it at that. Go ahead and yell and call me names, dismiss what I say without thought if you wish. I just thought that maybe even just one person here might be interested in another perspective on this set of opinions that seem to have upset so many of you so much. Perhaps you have to see the series to understand the context of these scenes. Perhaps they have meaning in context. But taken alone, it does seem there are otehr possibilities, including the all-too-familiar-to-some possibility that somehow discounting women, their feelings, their rights, their privacy is not only acceptable, but even vaguely entertaining.

Just a note from another viewpoint, here. I've admitted already I have not seen the series. I also admit, I haven't found much of a reason to see it, since the day it originally aired. So I am just throwing this out as food for thought.

The "duct tape her mouth shut" is obviously a joke in the context of the show, and Kaylee responds to it as such. Mal obviously appreciates Kaylee's cheerfulness a great deal, and she knows it.

Mal (the captain) pretty much is an asshole -- another character points out how even his name means bad, in Latin -- but he's also utterly loyal to his crew. He's kinda lost the ability to speak decently to anyone due to a rather traumatic event, and he is inherently violent. He's not supposed to be a paragon of virtue. But he has redeeming qualities.

Inara lets Mal break her three rules because by that point they've fallen in love with each other but aren't willing to admit it. It's essentially as close to flirting as they let themselves get.

By and large, I will admit that Firefly is the least feminist of all of Whedon's shows. While the concept of "companion" (= space hooker) is respectfully handled, it really is male fantasy. "So I can pay for sex, but it's all classy and the sex is always good and she'll only pick me if she really likes me." Zoe is the classic Whedon strong female character, but she's usually depicted as being "one of the guys," except while in bed with Wash, in a way that could be seen as making her less feminine.

That being said... throughout the show these characters say pretty bad things about each other sometimes, and even smack each other around sometimes, but they really are a family, and there are real families that can be pretty rough-and-tumble but never stop loving each other. When Mal beats up on one of the crew, it's because he feels that crew member has betrayed the rest, and that's his only reason. Their actions speak vastly louder than their words, and their actions are rooted in love. I found it incredibly telling that nowhere in that essay or in the comments was love mentioned in a positive way, at least not that I saw.

Love requires a little flex, and more than a little forgiveness, and I just don't see forgiveness entering into the philosophy this writer is coming from.

Hypatia,

You should watch the show before trying to read meaning into stupid blogs like that. Draw your own conclusions instead of letting someone else dictate them to you in advance. Honestly, how can we "call you names" after reading your post? You haven't even SEEN the show yet! That was a rather big writeup by a person who has never even seen a single frame of the TV show so you really don't have the right yet to comment on its messages.

I personally just hope that you don't take that persons view seriously until you have seen it entirely through, and frankly, I hope that you don't go into it with a pre-determined view point (although given you post you might). If thats the case, all that persons blog did is ruin a perfectly good show for you. Nothing more.

What Recoil said. Just in general to that post, hyp .. no offense, but .. ZUH??

hypatia said:

Going back and reading the blog that has so offended so many men here[..]

Click to expand...

.. and women. Lest the girls have been growing penises when I haven't been looking.

I'm not sure if "offended" is the right word. "dumbfounded" is more like it. The only part I found truely offensive was how she seems to equate sex - ANY sex - with rape. In one case, based simply on the racist assumption that interratial relationships aren't possible.

I'm about to say the most offensive thing I have ever said, and probably will ever say: that girl could really do with being raped. She obvioulsy is totally obsessed with rape, while having not the slightest clue as to what "rape" even is. Various women who DO actually know what rape is have rightfully called her on how fucking callous she is being towards people that have actually been raped by saying that sex between consenting adults = rape .. and she has been ignoring them.

Like me, you've probably heard/read some guys claiming that rape isn't actually "that bad", because .. where is the difference between sex and rape? Drivel like this gives guys like that credibility that they don't deserve. That is NOT good for women.

What exactly was the purpose of this exchange/scene, if it did occur?

Click to expand...

Like KF said .. it's Mal's humour. He keeps saying stuff like that - also in regard to the male members of the crew. Simon got similar quips on a regular basis. But, unlike Kaylee, he didn't quite "get" Mal.

And I know you won't like hearing this, but it does sound as if she has a point or two about empowerment issues (a woman clearing renting a shuttle under three express rules, having those rules violated, and still not standing up for her rights while the captain (I assume captain) acts as if hsi agreement should mean nothing.

Click to expand...

She would have a point if Mal treated ANYONE in his ship with respect. Which he didn't.

I'm willing to say that she has a point in that Mal is a bit of a sexist prick. Does that make the show sexist? No, because Mal is never portrayed as a "good guy" - creating him no more makes Joss Whedon a sexist than creating President Clark made JMS a fascist.

Calm down, guys. KF answered my questions perfectly. I was still assuming the blogger was overreacting to something, I admitted I hadn't seen the show so you can lay off on that Chilli and Recoil dears, and I simply pointed out a few things that I recognized in some radical feminists I've known.

They do tend to overreact (as many men do, by the way) but sometimes, given their history, you can kind of see why. Odd that you take that point so easily with a fictional character in the series, but take such offense when it might be playing out in a real human being. And there are some catch-phrases, catch-attitudes, and catch-jokes that sometimes do really set some people off. Sometimes, for good reason. Sometimes, perhaps, not.

So calm down, boys.

I asked for some perspective on the show, since it's likely I'll never see it, and I thank you KoshFan for calmly and clearly explaining to me much of what I suspected. But I don't feel compelled to see the series, it's just the extreme ANGER some of the posts had in this thread seemed to me to be as much of an fannish overreaction as the blogger appeared to be having.

I can simply rest my case with Chilli so brilliantly wishing rape upon someone, so they'll gain perspective. She sounds to me like someone who is actually vehemently anti-prostitution, and though I am not against the well treated, self-chosen, well-paid prostitute I do understand and respect why many women are.

And don't ever assume someone has never been raped. You'd be surprised at who has been who you might actually know or have met.

Anyhow, now you can comfortably go back to the blogger-bashing. I got my questions answered and that's the only reason I posted in the first place. I was simply curious about a violent overreaction to a violent overreaction.

Thanks again for your calm and rational response, KF.

Actually I had wondered from the extracts posted here,if she had experienced some kind of trauma relating to men. I think I put it down to the possibility of an abusive father... but I'm no psychiatrist.

hypatia said:

I can simply rest my case with Chilli so brilliantly wishing rape upon someone, so they'll gain perspective.

Click to expand...

No, I absolutely do not wish it upon her - that is NOT what I said. While I was going out of my way to be offensive, those my words, not. I was thinking of purely educational purposes only - either she hasn't been raped ... or, she has never had anything but traumatic experiences - in which case I would sympathize with her, if she wasn't being such a complete self-centered überbitch to other women from whom she KNOWS that they've been raped.

It's obvioulsy an area where she claims expertise that she either does not have or cannot analyze rationally ... and is, as an effect, being extremely offensive to women that actually have experienced rape (or have experienced it and have managed to compute where the difference lies between rape and sex). And when such women call her on it, she ignores them ... and in some cases, even deleted their posts without notice. Ergo, she can fuck off and die.

(You asked why we were so offended by her post. Here is my answer )

And don't ever assume someone has never been raped. You'd be surprised at who has been who you might actually know or have met.

Click to expand...

While I do have some experience with post-rape traumas, I can't know for sure if she has been raped, that is true. I do know, though, that the various commenters that she is going Stalin on HAVE been raped.

In the end, it's pretty irrelevant if she has experienced it herself or not, but she is being both offensive and damaging towards rape victims by making rape seem equivalent to prostitution, or even consetual "normal" sex.

Galahad said:

Actually I had wondered from the extracts posted here,if she had experienced some kind of trauma relating to men. I think I put it down to the possibility of an abusive father... but I'm no psychiatrist.

Click to expand...

That is entirely possible. In either case, she definitely does not have a healthy understanding of what "sex" is and what "rape" is.

Which is sad, really. And I would really sympathize, if it wasn't for her behaviour towards rape victims in her LJ's comments section - people that DEFINITELY have been raped, and have found the courage to speak about it.

Since I'm already being a complete jackass in this thread: my sympathy for Hitler over having his balls chewed off by a rabid goat ended when he started living out his childhood traumas by invading Poland and rounding up Jews and Gypsies (Godwin-ed!) Traumas can be very good explenations for people's odd behaviour. But they're no excuses - not among grownups.

So, enough douchebaggery on my part. I just got somewhat annoyed by this discussion being turned into a "us against them" issue, Crazyhorse-style, when I really can't see how my reasons for finding the author of this piece a dispicable human being are me being a woman-hater

I can only say that when a good idea becomes an obsession it no longer serves it's original purpose.The feminist who wrote the issue is obviously obsessed with the idea that TV and popular culture generate hatred towards women which is unthinkable.In my country there is a saying:
"Don't look for a calf under the ox" or don't look for something in places where it's not supposed to be.