A list of the not-so-good B5 Episodes

I never minded 'Grail', I enjoy anything with David Warner in, (watched Tron the other night...).

TKO sucked. The Ivannova sub-plot did not really grab me in the emotional way it was supposed to, even after quite afew viewings.

To be honest, i can think of half a dozen or so episodes that didn't quite make the grade, most are listed above. However, as a % of the series, they are tiny, especially when i compare it to later falvours of Trek...

I watched TKO and Grail again last night, and I still don't think they're that bad.

The thing that hurts TKO is the Mutai subplot. Intercut with Ivanova's emotional subplot, the Mutai fighting seems very out of place. Plus, if the fight scenes of the Mutai had been better thought out, there would have been some fight moves that looked more "alien". If it's such a big deal, we should be seeing some form of martial arts or acrobatics that don't look like typical human moves. If they punch and kick just like us, being human shouldn't be such a disadvantage as they make it out to be.

I still think the Ivanova subplot is good enough to compensate and make it an at least mediocre episode.

Grail does seem a little silly, especially because of a few scenes of particularly bad acting by the Deuce and Jinxo characters. However, I also like David Warner and think he did a great job. He was the compensating factor in that episode.

Grail is important from the B4 mystery aspect, but I just dont like it for some reaosn.

TKO I actually kind of liked the Mutai sub-plot. I can't really explain why, but I did like how Walker Smith came into it calling all aliens "snake heads" and left having earned and giving mutual respect to to them all. It was corny in some ways, but I actually liked that episode.

I guess its easier for me to name all the "cringe moments" in various episodes than name episodes as a whole that I did not like. I find that most every episode did have some aspect that added to the show or that I enjoyed. The Marcus/Neroon scenes and especially the medlab scene at the end of Grey-17 for example.

LOTS of cringe moments scattered throughout the series though. Here are a couple.

* Lyta's "I'm gonna sue somebody" dialogue in "Between the Darkness and the Light".
* Ivanova's "God sent me" speech to the commander of the advanced destroyers in the same episode.
* Ivanova's "sex dance" in "Acts of Sacrifice"
* Byron speaking

You get the idea.

Oh, and heres one nobody listed. I remember liking this episode the first couple times I saw it. Mainly because back then I wasnt a big Season 1 fan, and didnt like the Sinclair episodes, and this one marked Sheridan's enterance. Since then I have really learned to appreciate Season 1 (although I still would probably rank it last of the 5, but it is a lot better than I first gave it credit for). Anyway, am I the only one now who things "Points of Departure" is just a bad enterance for Sheridan? The half-assed way they explained the Minbari souls thing. How all of a sudden some Earth-Force captain knew who the Grey Council was and knew so much about how Minbari acted and communicated...when just the season before all that was a big mystery. Just the overall FEEL of that episode does nothing for me anymore. I would say that episode would be one I would put down as one of the worst. "Revelations" was FAR better at bringing Sheridan in the mix.

Ivanova's "God sent me"? Ivanova's sex dance? Are you out of your mind?!



The "God sent me" speech is, to me, one of those Babylonigasm moments...I love it! And the sex dance is just funny as hell. Now Rebo and Zooty were stupid.

As for the "sue somebody" speech...yeah it wasn't what it was supposed to be I don't think but it's not a cringe moment.

Byron? Well, he was a necessary evil...and was poorly directed oftentimes. We've all had the Byron discussion many times over...let's not dredge it up again.

As for cringe moments..."Monya! Datya!"...VOMIT! Of course we can't blame JMS for that one...that was DC's doing. Stupid "alien" words that are idiotic derivations of our own language. I hate that...it's a sign of poor writing. The episode was a good message, but the dialogue was sometimes way dorky.

As for Sheridan's entrance...didn't bother me then...doesn't bother me now. I take it that he's done a lot of research into the Minbari...and he would seem to be the type who would. Also, I never got the impression that the Grey Council was some kind of secret thing. People knew what it was and that it existed. It was that Delenn was a member of it that was the secretive element.

Never got the feeling the things you listed were a mystery or something we suddenly know more about with Sheridan. Sorry...don't get where you're coming from.

CE

I'm of two minds on the Boom Chaka Dance, I agree with CE, I personally think it's one of the most hilarious scenes in the series. Although, it is a bit embarrassing when someone who hasn't got a clue about B5 walks in the room, and gives you this strange look and asks why the hell you're watching such drivel.

Believers, when I watched it the first time through, I thought it was a very powerful episode, and showed me that B5 was definitely different than anything else out there, and was willing to go "Where no show has gone before", but it does kinda grate on me with repeated viewings, for the reasons that CE has already mentioned.

I liked Grail, although I have to admit the plot was a bit cheesy, cliched, and predictable. The things I like best about it were the fact that Aldus did apparently have some power (he asked the Feeder to step out of the suit... and it did), and Sinclair's conversation with Kosh at the end. There wasn't enough Kosh in S1.

Sheridan's entrance was a little forced out of necessity, but it definitely had merit. He comes in, a big smiling softie, and then bam, turns out he's Starkiller and he knows stuff. That's one recurring theme of Sheridan: he knows stuff, some of it a bit arcane but most of it useful. He collects secrets, right? Apparently he heard of some secret Minbari governing council and went digging for information.

Yeah, Grail is kinda cheesy, but it's entertaining.

And I like TKO.

Well maybe its me then, but I didnt laugh once during the "Sex Dance." Ever. I cringed the first time, and I do every time I see it. I think there are lots of funny parts in the series, but that to me was far from one of them. Someone on this BBS nailed it on the head a while ago regarding JMS's writing and humor. Either he is really on, and its damn funny, or he is so far off the mark its scary. There is just no inbetween. I do think B5 had a lot more cringe moments than other series, like DS9 for example, even though I think the overall quality of B5's story was superior.

Well maybe its me then, but I didnt laugh once during the "Sex Dance." Ever. I cringed the first time, and I do every time I see it.

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Humor is so subjective; don't you think, Molari?

- Cartagia

The "God sent me" speech is, to me, one of those Babylonigasm moments...I love it!

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I'm with you CE. I love that speech...gives me chills just to think about it.

Well maybe its me then, but I didnt laugh once during the "Sex Dance." Ever. I cringed the first time, and I do every time I see it. I think there are lots of funny parts in the series, but that to me was far from one of them. Someone on this BBS nailed it on the head a while ago regarding JMS's writing and humor. Either he is really on, and its damn funny, or he is so far off the mark its scary. There is just no inbetween. I do think B5 had a lot more cringe moments than other series, like DS9 for example, even though I think the overall quality of B5's story was superior.

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A couple of points right quick. First...JMS didn't write the sex dance ep. Nor did he write Grey 17, Believers, TKO, etc. Let us not forget these little important facts.

Second, as for more cringe moments, I can give some leeway to B5 since it was done on the fly (guerilla series making), on a much lower budget and didn't have the clout that ST had at the time...so that means poorer FX, not so great day players and such. There is a difference between a bad script and a bad actor or director...and having money and pull to do what you want...and not having it.

CE

JMS did indeed write Grey 17 Is Missing and all the other episodes in the third season. He also wrote Acts Of Sacrifice.

The AoS sex dance was probably THE worst thing in the entire series. Awful. Inexcusable.

The only unforgivable, and totally bad ep, still has to remain TKO. Both plots were cliche and hokey. Ivanova's subplot was predictable and boring, and tried too much to be emotional when it just wasn't. Who didn't think Susan would catch the Rabbi right before he boarded the ship and ended up crying her eyes out? It's been done.

I can see what people think about Believers. Even though the ep was mostly dull, the ending was good stuff, and that kind of gives it a mediocre rating overall. Sometimes the ending really can make up at least in part a mostly bad ep.

Well I have mentioned above that I liked TKO...different strokes for different folks. At first I thought "Believers" was boring but watching it a second time and since then I really appreciated it (much like most of S1 for me). It was a very well done story about who is right, and who is wrong, when it comes to a races belief system, and it showed a lot of good character moments for the Doctor as well as Sinclair (who was the only person who was truly RIGHT in that episode). The ending was fantastic.

JMS did indeed write Grey 17 Is Missing and all the other episodes in the third season. He also wrote Acts Of Sacrifice.

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I stand with head bowed low. For some reason, I thought he didn't write those. Of course, I like the sex dance. And I stand by my insight...that oftentimes it's the direction. (For an example of the difference direction can make with the same dialogue...watch Lynch's "Mulholland Drive.") In fact, in B5, a lot of the cringe moments are not bad writing, or even acting...it's very weak directing.

Ah, well, who cares. B5 moved me and changed me forever. Trek has only made me smile and have a little fun from time to time watching SF (though not in any of the latter incarnations -- DS9 thru Enterprise) with only a few exceptions). Let's see....live altering...just fun...live altering...just fun.

I'll choose life altering, Alex.

I think I can forgive and forget any cringe moments...especially considering the guerilla series making they were doing.

CE

At JMS recent NJ appearance he said he thought Grey 17 was the worst. He said that he usually works everything out in his mind before he starts the actually writing. With Grey 17 he said he struggled with the written version for weeks!

Responding to a few of the comments made over the weekend:

On TKO: Yes, the Ivanova sub-plot was fairly predictable ... but it was done pretty well and effectively. The actor who played the Rabbi (name escapes me at the moment) did a good job and his interactions with Susan, and the one or two with Sinclair, played very nicely and naturally (to my eye, anyway). For me, the poetry reading Q/A story (while possibly a bit hackneyed) worked and was an effective way of showing Susan letting go of the hard feeling about some of the later conflicts with her father and re-embracing the memory of the father that she had been close to.



On cringe moments, directing vs. acting vs. writing ....
I can very easily see your point about the directing. However, from my immediate reactions, the worst cringe moment in an otherwise good episode (meaning not one of the episodes that I ever have heard anyone put on a list of relatively mediocre or bad episodes) was one where I felt the acting just didn't carry the moment. When Ivanova brings Sheridan the data crystal with the video of the civilian transport being destroyed, I just never bought CC's performance of the moment. It always felt forced, like was "showing the audiance" that she was extremely angry instead of just being extrememly angry. I don't quite know how to explain it. The moment just didn't work at all for me. I generally really liked her performance as SI. That was just one moment where I was really made consciously aware that CC wasn't as as strong or versatile an actor as (for example) MF, AK, or PJ (the alien ambassadors).


On Grey 17 ....
I seem to remember reading a quote from JMS somewhere along the line about the Zarg. He said that it was one of those cases where something looked good on the page; looked good in the design sketches; looked good in the creature shop when they built the suit ...... and then immediately looked absolutely horrible when an actor put the suit on and *moved*. Of course, by then it was much too late to change the design of the Zarg. All they could do was limit its screen time as much as possible and try to obscure it in steam etc. as much as possible.

The actor who played the Rabbi (name escapes me at the moment

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That was Theodore Bikel.

Thanks. Mentally I was just getting "Travis" for a first name. And I knew that was *very* wrong.

A guy named Travis playing a Russian Jewish Rabbi?