B5:TLT - Show Discussion Thread (Spoilers)

That's RIGHT! AHH! It makes sense now! I can see where he could possibly get the warmongering genes now. =) Refa was far more subtle than Cartagia.

Thanks for clearing that up. It was driving me nuts.

Though, a second question begs to be asked: how did this guy know that Vir killed Cartagia? If only Vir and Londo were there?

Alluveal said:

Though, a second question begs to be asked: how did this guy know that Vir killed Cartagia? If only Vir and Londo were there?

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Only Londo and Vir were there but remember that Londo had a meeting with several other Centauri about removing Cartagia from the throne so I'm sure that there was court gossip once Cartagia was dead. As you recall, Vir didn't react well to the experience so I'm sure others noticed and put two and two together.

Jan

Also it is over 10 years after the assassination took place, plenty of time for the rumour mill to churn away... especially when you consider that Vir kept having night terrors due to his memories. It's not too great a leap to consider that one of his aides or a third party might overhear him in the night either on B5 or somewhere else during that time... and use the intrigue to advance their position... especially when taking Centauri culture into consideration.

I think this would tie nicely into a Londo / Vir story, but until Warners get their fingers out of their buts, cough up some cash and end this damn strike, we are not going to find out.

The DVD was ace, produced on a shoe-string and sold buckets. What is there not for execs to like here ?

Hurry up guys !!

I'm not sure if it's still on there, but, I noticed not long ago, that B5 TLT was airing on ON DEmand with Comcast Cable, in case someone who hasn't seen it yet, can't afford to purchase it. I don't remember for sure if it was free, or if it $3.99, though.

Since I finally was able to see Lost Tales the other day I figured I'd share my thoughts. I was highly disappointed, and this was easily the worst canonical B5 work published, or at the very least it is neck and neck with River Of Souls for that honor.

The first story, the Lochley story, is not a B5 story in any way. Besides the fact that as a story unto itself it is meandering and far too preachy, as a B5 story it has no place in the B5 universe and doesn't feel at all like a story that belongs in the B5 universe. The second story, Sheridan's, is much better than the first, but it's merely a decent story, not a great one. The inconsistencies with B5 continuity bugged me (such as the Sheridan riding in on a Stafury, the ship he used to win the Shadow Wars line, when the Starfuries had next to nothing to do with the Shadow Wars and if they really wanted a symbol then a White Star should have been the choice). But, as a story it was okay, but nothing special, although I really couldn't stand that someone that is supposedly as enlightened and intelligent and as great of a strategist as Sheridan immediately accepts Galen's claims that Vindiri must die at face value and up until the last moment is going to go ahead with them. So Sheridan's story felt like a B5 story and it belongs in the universe, but it just wasn't a good story.

All in all I'm still happy that Lost Tales was made, but I hope the future stories feel more like how B5, Crusade, LOTR, and the canon books made the B5 universe feel. An auspicious start to the series, but hopefully it will get better.

It´s been 8 months now since B5:TLT was released. The sales were much better than expected (as said by JMS himself), fans all around the world got excited and are waiting for the next dvd, so you would expect an annoucement about new TLT, right? But no, 8 months later, and there are no signs of more being produced ... what are they waiting for? For more actors to die? B5 proved that it can still sell. Some important actors died and won't be recast, but others are still available and willing to do more B5. But they are also getting older, so if they plan on doing more TLT, the time is now.

Marcelo said:

It´s been 8 months now since B5:TLT was released. The sales were much better than expected (as said by JMS himself), fans all around the world got excited and are waiting for the next dvd, so you would expect an annoucement about new TLT, right? But no, 8 months later, and there are no signs of more being produced ... what are they waiting for? For more actors to die? B5 proved that it can still sell. Some important actors died and won't be recast, but others are still available and willing to do more B5. But they are also getting older, so if they plan on doing more TLT, the time is now.

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Well, remember that the writers' strike did interfere with any potential further TLT developments. And with what jms said:

...they initiated talks about what to do
next, including commissioning more DVDs. Looking at the calendar, I
suggested that they might want to hurry the bureaucratic process
because we were going to be in a strike situation soon, so if they
wanted to move, they'd better commision a script fast.

And they said in response, and I quote verbatim, "We don't want to be
pressured in the process because we know there's not going to be a
strike this year, we can handle the Guild."

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Those execs that met with him over TLT don't really seem all that clued in to reality to me, so who knows when anything will happen, if at all.

Cell said:

The first story, the Lochley story, is not a B5 story in any way. Besides the fact that as a story unto itself it is meandering and far too preachy, as a B5 story it has no place in the B5 universe and doesn't feel at all like a story that belongs in the B5 universe.

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I've read your post on that, elsewhere (you know where ) - I can't quite agree with you. I found the Lochley story far more interesting that the second one (which was a bit too predictable for my tastes, and yes, that Sheridan would refuse to consider other options for so long is a bit hard to believe).

Why do you feel that the Lochley story has no place in the B5 universe? I think it has a similar spirit like, for instance, "Passing through Gethsemane" (which is one of my favorite episodes). Only in this case, it's less about sin and forgiveness, but about the nature of evil, and whether the human race has a chance to evolve beyond it.

And by "too preachy", do you mean the dialogue, or the message? Because I think the message in the end is by no means clear.

mandragora said:

Why do you feel that the Lochley story has no place in the B5 universe? I think it has a similar spirit like, for instance, "Passing through Gethsemane" (which is one of my favorite episodes). Only in this case, it's less about sin and forgiveness, but about the nature of evil, and whether the human race has a chance to evolve beyond it.

And by "too preachy", do you mean the dialogue, or the message? Because I think the message in the end is by no means clear.

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I don't think it was anything like PTG at all. The first didn't try and present evil as a tangible supernatural thing, it presented it as a very human thing, something we are all capable of. They went out of their way in the Lochley story to make it supernatural and beyond the norm, and I don't buy that in the B5 universe. There has never been anything in the B5 universe that has been presented where I said, "man, this just doesn't fit." But, the idea of demons inhabiting bodies and trying to get into outer space really felt like it didn't fit to me. Even if that isn't the case, just the whole idea of that being viewed as a possibility didn't fit with me.

I think the dialogue, the acting, and the message all combined to be far too preachy. Instead of subtly layering the story or presenting a religious viewpoint in a subdued way we were clubbed over the head with it for 40 minutes and it came across as far too preachy for my liking. Even when we would have a Minbari-centric episode where there religious beliefs were the core, there was always an opposing viewpoint and the Minbari's beliefs were presented in a subtle, subdued way. That was not the case in this episode as every character from the beginning was heavy handed with the way in which they presented this idea of demons and evil.

Cell said:

I don't think it was anything like PTG at all. The first didn't try and present evil as a tangible supernatural thing, it presented it as a very human thing, something we are all capable of. They went out of their way in the Lochley story to make it supernatural and beyond the norm, and I don't buy that in the B5 universe. There has never been anything in the B5 universe that has been presented where I said, "man, this just doesn't fit." But, the idea of demons inhabiting bodies and trying to get into outer space really felt like it didn't fit to me. Even if that isn't the case, just the whole idea of that being viewed as a possibility didn't fit with me.

I think the dialogue, the acting, and the message all combined to be far too preachy. Instead of subtly layering the story or presenting a religious viewpoint in a subdued way we were clubbed over the head with it for 40 minutes and it came across as far too preachy for my liking. Even when we would have a Minbari-centric episode where there religious beliefs were the core, there was always an opposing viewpoint and the Minbari's beliefs were presented in a subtle, subdued way. That was not the case in this episode as every character from the beginning was heavy handed with the way in which they presented this idea of demons and evil.

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I see ... I have to say after over half a year I'm still not entirely sure what to make of this story (which is why I find it so interesting).

I'm pretty sure Asmodeus wasn't a demon in the biblical sense. There were a few lines that pointed to that - like Father Cassidy's line that this wasn't an ordinary case of possession, and Lochley who said that while they hadn't found Seraphim in space, they hadn't found one of these "things" either.

What Asmodeus was, I'm not certain. I'm not sure if it's important anyway. Right now, I tend to see the entire story more in a metaphorical sense - if Asmodeus, who has assumed the name of the demon of hatred and destruction, stands for those traits, I see three major implications in the story:

1) Asmodeus (and thus hatred and destruction) clearly wasn't send to B5 by God - thus the traits he represents aren't something send by God to keep humans in place;
2) Asmodeus (and thus hatred and destruction) needs humans to "hitchhike", he can't get to the stars on his own; and
3) as Asmodeus was banned on earth, in the end the story seemed to say that when in a million years the human will have been "vorlonised", they will be able to leave and Asmodeus will have to stay and be destroyed along with Earth as the sun goes Nova. So humans are capable of leaving behind hatred and destruction.

That's how I see the story at present; of course I may be completely wrong. I haven't quite decided whether I like it or not, or to what extent I agree. But I find the ideas very interesting at least.

I think the ideas are interesting and would work in any number of other sci-fi shows, or as a sci-fi all unto itself. However I don't think it works within the confines of the structured B5 universe.

I understand your point. But since I'm still very uncertain what to make of it all, I can't say I agree - nor can I say that I entirely disagree.

In fact, assuming that I'm on the right track for a moment, even if it's just for the sake of speculation, besides the idea of evil as tangible that seems somehow implicit in the story, I have another problem with my own theory. After all we've seen of the Vorlons, I'm finding the idea that by evolving to the state of the Vorlons humans will eventually be able to leave "Asmodeus", that is hatred and destruction, behind on Earth a bit difficult to accept. Well, maybe they'll leave hatred behind, but clearly not arrogance and other undesirable traits that can also lead to destruction.

I'm not sure if or how it fits in the B5 universe, but as long as I find it interesting and thought-provoking, I'm not bothered by it too much. I still find it more intriguing than the rather straightforward Sheridan part. I'm curious if we'll find out more about this story eventually.

Cell said:

...But, the idea of demons inhabiting bodies....

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Are you so certain it was a supernatural demon and not an alien consciousness mascarading as one? The Vorlons mascaraded as angels, after all.

I'm not certain one way or the other, but that is my own interpretation. I believe that the story went out of its way to leave the impression that it was in fact a demon. Now, of course that could have been misdirection, but even if that is the case as I said earlier I believe they laid on the "demon" part far too thick and heavy for the end result to be that misdirection. Or, to phrase that better, not that it wasn't a possible misdirection, but I didn't like the non-subtle way they went about possibly setting that up.

Cell said:

I think the ideas are interesting and would work in any number of other sci-fi shows, or as a sci-fi all unto itself. However I don't think it works within the confines of the structured B5 universe.

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the vorlons masqueraded as gods, so would it not make sense that perhaps the shadows and thier allies masqueraded as demons on primitive worlds. I'm no expert but were the fallen not banished from the heavens by god, and if so does it not make sense that the vorlons banished warriors of the shadows and bound them to earth?

That's stretching the story quite a bit to me, and that's something I just don't buy. It would work in a different universe that is structured differently, but I don't think it works at all in the B5 universe. I see no reason for the Vorlons to do as such, and they would just as soon kill the Shadows allies as to banish them. The Vorlons are intent on controlling the younger races, so why would they even give the Shadows allies a chance to work against them by banishing them to Earth?

Just because we've been mostly exposed to Shadows and Vorlons over the course of the main story of B5 doesn't mean that Asmodeus himself has anything specific to do with either; there were plenty of other powerful aliens in the galaxy at one point or another, especially thousands of years before the time period that B5 takes place. Personally, I wouldn't be surprised if Asmodeus was one of The Hand from Legend of the Rangers. All we really learned about The Hand in LOTR was that at least some of their followers claimed they were "the hand of God". Asmodeus himself toyed with Father Cassidy with the idea that his being all big and bad would drive humans to believing in God, sort of like he viewed himself as a hand of God.

I'm sorry, I would buy that if the story would have been presented differently. But, as it is, I can't. The story was presented not as an "super power alien force that may be inducing these types of feelings or powers" but rather as a man that is either possessed, crazy, or a very strong teep. With the story definitely leaning towards the possession angle. So, while I would have liked to have been able to watch this story and take away a vibe of alien possession from a super power, I didn't, and that's because it was as I stated, a very heavy handed story that pushed the religious factor down your throat.

Cell said:

With the story definitely leaning towards the possession angle.

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I never said Burke wasn't possessed. I'm saying what he was possessed by wasn't truly a Biblical-style demon but instead was an alien consciousness trying to use him to escape Earth.

One can go down this road with the Vorlons too: did the Vorlons pretend to be angels or did human belief in angels come about as a result of them encountering Vorlons way back when. Same too with Asmodeus: was he pretending to be a possessing demon or did the human concept of a possessing demon come about as a result of encountering Asmodeus, and possibly others like him, that have been somehow confined to Earth by other aliens way back when. As with the Vorlons, not everything has been answered about Asmodeus, and I think it's unrealistic to expect to have been, given jms's blatantly stated desire that he enjoys telling stories in which he doesn't explain everything. He did the same thing with souls over the course of B5; there are plenty characters in the story that believe souls are real, but there's nothing that proves they are. In "Over Here", Cassidy and Lochley lean toward believing Asmodeus is a demon given both of their past histories but they also don't absolutely believe it; both of them express their doubts in the story, and their doubt gives us the room to see that the story isn't definitively saying Asmodeus is a true demon.

The stories of The Lost Tales were never intended to be like episodes of the show. The series itself is a novel. The Lost Tales are short stories. jms told us from the beginning that TLT were going to be smaller, more intimate, character stories, and that's exactly what we got. The point of the stories is not to explain every potential plot detail but to explore the minds of characters, what and how they think.

...So, while I would have liked to have been able to watch this story and take away a vibe of alien possession from a super power, I didn't, and that's because it was as I stated, a very heavy handed story that pushed the religious factor down your throat.

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I am as sensitive as anyone to having religion pushed on me. You are new to this board, so you are unaware of the major, explosive arguments I've gotten into on here with religious members. And I in no way whatsoever felt the religious aspect of "Over Here" was pushy, it was a shade of the Lochley character that we hadn't seen before. It gave us the ability to see how she dealt with religion and how she figured out and then fended off someone who sought to use religion as a mask to achieve a non-religious goal.

G'Kar has told us twice (that I can remember) over the course of Babylon 5 that "nothing ... is as it appears". Why fall into the assumption that that wisdom from G'Kar doesn't apply here when it's been a foundation stone to the stories of Babylon 5 from the beginning.