First Ones, Second Ones, stragglers, and checkers

This is inspired by one or two of the other posts on Shadows & Vorlons. I know there are a lot of those topics right now, but I think I'm either taking a different angle or just bringing all the other topics together (I'm not sure which)...

1. Does the term "First One" truly apply to everyone from Lorien down to the youngest of the older helpers at Corianna 6, or should "First Ones" really only apply to Lorien's people, making the other old races Second Ones?

2. Depending on your answer to the first question, who would be considered the "Second Ones", if such a term were created? Would they be the younger half of what is more collectively called First Ones, or would the Second Ones be some of the younger races who survived/thrived during the last Shadow War--and if so, which races?

3. What is up with the Walkers of Sigma 957 and the other First One races that helped at Corianna 6? Are they stragglers, with the bulk of their races already beyond the Rim, or were they all still here and just taking a back seat to the Vorlons & Shadows? If they are stragglers, why'd they stay behind when the rest of their kind went away? Did they protest the Rim move, were they left intentionally as observers of the Vorlons & Shadows, did they have their own affairs to take care of, or were they just kickin' back playing checkers on the porch for a few centuries?

4. Depending on your answer to number 3, what were the extra First Ones up to? The Vorlons & Shadows were obviously fairly busy, but the other First Ones didn't get involved until Lorien asked them too.

5. If there were First One stragglers during the first great war, couldn't there still be First One stragglers from the last Shadow War? There could still be First Ones hiding under a rock somewhere because they *still* didn't agree with moving beyond the Rim, despite Lorien's influence.

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An Old Egyptian Blessing: May God stand between you and harm in all the empty places that you must walk.

Thoughts & prayers to soldiers fighting overseas and to their families.

About the stragglers. We've already been shown that the Vorlons have a 6th sense when it comes to the future. Perhaps the other first ones do also. If that were the case, then perhaps the stragglers stayed behind because they knew there was going to be a great final battle and knew their assistance would be needed. That's one expanation. About the term first ones. I read somewhere that the first ones were simply the great all powerful races that left for the rim. So simply put, the first ines are those who are not in our company and more. About the second ones. Once again I read(not sure where) that the Minbari, Drakh, Soul-hunters etc. were the "middle races" If you ask me that't pretty derned close to the second ones.

Note: This is all pure speculation and is open to the criticism that I know is coming. I just wanted to get my 2 cents in.

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Garibaldi: "Someone's trying to frame me for the explosion in the Cobra bay. They planted a schematic of the bay and a pouch of Centauri ducats in my quarters."
Londo: "Cen-tar-ri?"
Garibaldi: "Cen-tau-ri."
Londo: "Po-tay-to?"
Garibaldi: "Po-tah-to."
Londo: "To-may-to?"
Garibaldi: "To-mah-to."
Londo: "(and Garibaldi) Let's call the whole thing off!" Downbelow Sound Archive

enter criticism here --> {}

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Oh boy, here it comes.

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If I say I'm a habitual liar am I telling the truth?

It's an open question and only JMS can really answer. It was my impression that the First Ones were those races who had survived since the distant past (millions of years ago) most of whom had already moved beyond the Rim. This includes the Vorlons and Shadows who remained behind to look after the younger races. The others that remained were as you put it, "stragglers". There was only one ship from each of the races and Lorien said he wanted to get them all so we can assume that there were no more. Most of these races had what could be called "super powers" and lived almost forever.

I never heard the expression Second Ones, but certainly some of the younger races were far more advanced than others. None of those races had any super powers nor did they live extraordinarily long lives.

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I always seem to be diagonally parked in a parallel universe.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>3. What is up with the Walkers of Sigma 957 and the other First One races that helped at Corianna 6? Are they stragglers, with the bulk of their races already beyond the Rim, or were they all still here and just taking a back seat to the Vorlons & Shadows? If they are stragglers, why'd they stay behind when the rest of their kind went away? Did they protest the Rim move, were they left intentionally as observers of the Vorlons & Shadows, did they have their own affairs to take care of, or were they just kickin' back playing checkers on the porch for a few centuries?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

the walkers didnt just sit at sigma 957... the popped back there at seemingly random times. i would think that the walkers, and the other remaining first ones were waiting... i suspect that they all knew, as lorien did, that the vorlon/shadow thing would eventually break down into an all out war, and that the only solution would be to let the younger races gain dominance... so a few of the races left ships behind as watchers, to wait for the time that they would be needed, to finally bring the vorlons and shadows out beyond the rim. thus assuming that the bulk of the first ones were already gone, including those of the races we saw. what kind of races only has one ship anyway?

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### Hi, I'm a sig virus. Please add me to the end of your signature so I can take over the world.### - caught from Saps @ B5MG

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR> It's an open question and only JMS can really answer. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah, I kinda figured that. It's okay; opinions are what I was looking for anyway.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR> Note: This is all pure speculation and is open to the criticism that I know is coming. I just wanted to get my 2 cents in.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I was expecting speculation; in fact, I'm encouraging it (since you're both right; only JMS knows). Criticism shouldn't be coming. You're entitled to your opinions. No one can say they're right but JMS, and I doubt he'll show up to tell us we're wrong.

In fact, I still need to answer my own questions. I'll try to come back to it later when I'm not in so much need of going to bed.

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An Old Egyptian Blessing: May God stand between you and harm in all the empty places that you must walk.

Thoughts & prayers to soldiers fighting overseas and to their families.

I want to suggest somthing here and I may be laying my defenses bare here! (hiding beneath the table and reaching up to type with one hand)
What if Lorien wasn't the first one? I mean I know B5 canon regards him as "the one" numero uno! but what happens if he was the last of a race that at one stage was like any younger race. the sat at apoint in history where they saw their group of first ones crossing over to an unknown space in time!
The reason why I ask this is so that I can give my answer. The term "first One " would actually be quite flexible! Think about it The first ones went beyond the rim because they had progressed onto the next level of existance, whatever that may be. Corpereal form or just a super advanced technological species (Vorlons and Shadows respectivelly).
Our "first ones" were merely the ones to pass past the rim. The kids are going to college dear, lets have some more! JMS is very optomistic but if we get to our "elevated state of existance" we may be viewed as the Vorlons are viewed now. Don't forget the alien galaxy of JMS'shasn't included many alien species so if a reletavilly young race pops into the equation a couple of millinia years from now, Humans and the minbari are the caretakers of the galaxy, war erupts etc, etc. It ends in whichever manner it does and they leave the galaxy as "first ones" because the current first ones have moved beyond myth and legend!

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"I am Grey. I stand between the candle and the star. We are Grey. We stand between the darkness and the light. I come to take the place that has been prepared for me"
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the present becomes the past, the past becomes history, history becomes legend, legend becomes myth, myth becomes obscurity! please pass the flarn!

This seems to be a really popular topic, this First One debate. Some people tend to think that only a couple of races deserve this so called "second one" status. Well, if the First Ones is a term that is inclusive of the first sentient being Ever all the way down to a race that is younger than the Vorlons. I should think that the Second Ones is going to have a much broader range than just Minbari, Humans, Drakh, etc. In fact a race that springs up in the next million years could very well be in the same class as the Minbari who are one of the oldest of the younger races. When time is this vast, all of a sudden the point of reference must be adjusted to deal with that.

Besides how do we know for sure our place in the galaxy in the episode "Deconstruction of Falling Stars." I mean it's pretty obvious, we become Vorlons but who knows for sure that we're not second fiddle to the Pak'ma'ra or the Vree. Has JMS said anything, because I haven't heard it.

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YOU ARE NOT READY FOR IMMORTALITY!

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR> Has JMS said anything, because I haven't heard it.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

JMS said that Humans make it.
Minbari make it Eventually, but much later than Humans.
Centauri & Narn are still around, but never quite get there, having trapped themselves in Evolutionary dead ends.

As far as I know, these are the only races JMS gave any specific info on regarding their ultimate evolution.

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Do not ascribe your own motivations to others:
At best, it will break your heart.
At worst, it will get you dead."

A JMS quote from the Lurkers Guide synopsis for 'Deconstruction...':

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR> The Minbari eventually make it; the Narn and Centauri do not. They don't die out, they just don't hit a state of First One-ishness, which is darn close to immortality (barring violence). <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

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"Part of the inhumanity of the computer is that, once it is competently programmed and working smoothly, it is completely honest" - Isaac Asimov
--
yan@ranger.b5lr.com

So that would be after one million years.
What they have become after two?
After a hundred million years?
A billion years?
Who knows.

[This message has been edited by Lennier (edited February 11, 2002).]

Sentiments exactly Lennier.

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YOU ARE NOT READY FOR IMMORTALITY!

I'm not sure if this is mentioned somewhere around here, but just a million years seems too short time for a huge evolution what we have seen. For example last 65 million years
is very short time if we look at the current state.

Maybe it doesn't recuire natural evolution, but rather technical tampering like we have seen to do with Jason Ironheart.

Regards,
TheInfection

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Things change... long time gone by.

I agree with "theinfection" the odds are 10 to 1 that humans reach first one status by default. The Minbari "eventually" rach it. The probably do it the proper way. Knowing us humans we hop skip and jump towards first one status. Reaching first one status doesn't automatically make you a good guy. For all we know, humans make it and become like the shadows. It all boils down to if's and maybe's.
I think we can narrow the argument down a bit. Which of the races that we see in B5 reach first one status. JMS outlines this for us.Who knows by the time we reach our pinnacle the original first ones are forgotten completely!

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"I am Grey. I stand between the candle and the star. We are Grey. We stand between the darkness and the light. I come to take the place that has been prepared for me"
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the present becomes the past, the past becomes history, history becomes legend, legend becomes myth, myth becomes obscurity! please pass the flarn!

Well, the Vorlons kick started every race they gave Telepath/Telekinetic DNA to.

If Ironheart's abilities are the proper template for achieving "First Oneishness", and I believe they are, all the races would have to evolve (or GENEngineer) these talents before they could Take that final step.

By cutting the time period for that particular evolutionary step, the Vorlons have enabled the races to jump forward by (possibly) hundreds of thousands of years.

Telepathy would (once it becomes Universal for a race) allow a huge jump in Intellectual and Scientific progress because it would allow Education to proceed Much faster and become more thorough.
The better educated people become, the more likely it is that people with the talents for science and technology would achive success and be able to conduct the research that leads to new knowlege.

Ironheart is the best template we have to explain how living beings could transform themselves into Energy.
It would have to be a Conscious effort.
And without the ultimate Telekinetic abilities Ironheart developed, it would be pretty much impossible.



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Do not ascribe your own motivations to others:
At best, it will break your heart.
At worst, it will get you dead."

This is all well and good in theory but in practice it all seems to go awry.
Telepathy and intelligence can be genetically enhanced, wisdom can only come with time. We , as a species have proven time and again how ill equiped we are when it comes to wisdom. The Vorlons have given the humans as well as the other races the kick start they needed but don't ever mistake intelligence for wisdom and Vice versa. The Minbari may take longer but perhaps they gain the wisdom that is needed.
Maybe I'm off the mark but that is honestly the way I see it.

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"I am Grey. I stand between the candle and the star. We are Grey. We stand between the darkness and the light. I come to take the place that has been prepared for me"
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the present becomes the past, the past becomes history, history becomes legend, legend becomes myth, myth becomes obscurity! please pass the flarn!

Going on with how long we've been around, this may be a misunderstanding of mine.

I'm looking at it as the humans in 226x had the potential to elevate to first one status. As we saw in Deconstruction the Rangers help to rebuild the Earth 'better' than it was before. Possibly some of the 'better' encourages the evolution since we've already been here for ~65 million years. Another million in that figure isn't all that long espically since it's really only been the last few thousand that technology has jumped radically.

Disclaimer: I've never read any of the books but am familiar with the TV series. Everything is purly speculation, blah blah blah.

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Talathanar said
Possibly some of the 'better' encourages the evolution since we've already been here for ~65 million years. Another million in that figure isn't all that long espically since it's really only been the last few thousand that technology has jumped radically. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually Humans have only been around for as far back as maybe 2 million years ago not 65mya . You are thinking of the Anthropological crossover from the "Age of Reptiles" to the "Age of Mammals", that happened 65 mya. If you consider the Australophithecines to be the first humans, and most anthropologists do; than the figure goes back to about 2 million years. Our particular sub-species is Homo sapiens sapiens and that goes back only about 50-60,000 years.

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YOU ARE NOT READY FOR IMMORTALITY!

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR> Telepathy and intelligence can be genetically enhanced, wisdom can only come with time. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Are you assuming that Evolution is dependent on Wisdom??

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Do not ascribe your own motivations to others:
At best, it will break your heart.
At worst, it will get you dead."