JMS - Non-update update

Around 1999 - shortly after Sleeping in Light aired (in Nov '98) - JMS said that he wouldn't want to make a B5 theatrical movie for at least five years.

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That's not exactly what he said. He never said anything about "waiting five years" and I don't think he was expressing a wish so much as guessing when he could do such a project as a practical matter. (Assuming, as he did at the time, that Crusade was going run for five years and that Lucasfilm was going to be able to keep up the hype and dominated the SF press to the point where other SF films would have a hard time getting publicity.)

Here's what he did say about when he'd want to see a theatrical film released (not when he'd want to start pre-production on it.) Remember that at the time he was starting pre-production on Crusade and that George Lucas had a more optimistic estimate for how quickly he could get the next Star Wars trilogy completed and into theaters. Also remember that JMS has relatively little control about things like production dates and release schedules for a theatrical film or air dates (and thus production dates) for a TV project. The studio/network would be calling most of the shots, and then there's the matter of coordinating all the other talent, shooting locations, FX houses, etc. JMS can't just wake up one morning and decide, "We start shooting the new B5 project five years from Tuesady". If WB doesn't want to do the project it doesn't get done at all. If WB wants to start shooting two weeks from next Tuesday, JMS starts writing his little fingers off. The preferences and inclinations JMS noted in the posts below should not be taken as plans written in stone at the time. (Especially given that he was trying to get Crusade on its feet at the time and wanted to baby it through the first critical season or two, after which it would mostly be able to run by itself under the supervision of others.):

Q: What did you think of the trailer for the new "Star Wars" movie?

Thought it looked great... and definitely raises the idea* that maybe* there shouldn't be a B5 movie until after the last of the three new SW films is out and done. Ain't no way any other SF film project can compete with that. - jms 21 Nov 1998

(* italics added)

Q: (In response to a 1998 rumor on the Coming Attractions B5 page)

A: No posters have been created. Nor have I spoken to WB about any movie concept concerning the Vorlons' impact on Earth. There were some preliminary discussions about a possible storyline (none of which has been accurately reported anywhere, that info is still held only by us), but it's my feeling that a) it's best to concentrate on getting CRUSADE right first, and b) I'm loathe to compete* with the new Star Wars movies, and would rather wait until that's all done, so we can also take advantage of new technologies to make the show. Simply put... I'm in no hurry. I'd rather get it right than get it done on Tuesday. - jms

* (italics added)

Q: I was wondering if there is any truth to this. Someone on the B5LR board posted it: "I also recall that JMS has all ready been offered money for a feature film, 50 million I believe but wishes to wait until Star Wars is outta the way."

Wow, this is news to me! Is it true?

A: No. - jms 7 Sep 2001

I personally JMS overestimated how much wall-to-wall hype the Star Wars films would generate. It ins't like other SF films haven't been released and done well in the interim, or that Lucas was able to keep his project that much in front of the media during the "off years" between films to really cause anybody else trouble. (The fact that the first of the films sucked so badly that many of us never bothered to see the second probably also contributed to the less-than-dominant position of the new trilogy. )

But it isn't like JMS decided in 1998 or 1999 to "wait" to do a theatrical film, and now he's starting on schedule. Even assuming that the current project is a theatrical film it is clear that in 1998 WB was interested in doing one because B5 S5 and several TV movies had done well on TNT, the reruns were getting good ratings and Crusade was in the pipeline. As far as the studio was concerned, this spelled "franchise". By the summer of 1999 Crusade was dead (The Sci-Fi Channel having been unable to pick it up) the TNT ratings were down, Netter Digital, the fan club and B5 Magazine were bankrupt. The U.S. VHS and LD sales were so bad the whole home video project had to be cancelled. WB was no longer interested in a movie at any time. Now something (presumably the DVD sales) has got someone (either WB alone for a film or WB and a partner for a TV project) interested in B5 again. I think the current project has everything to do with the profit potential that The Powers That Be started to see in 2003/04, and very little to do with what JMS was thinking in 1998/99.

Regards,

Joe

Thought it looked great... and definitely raises the idea* that maybe* there shouldn't be a B5 movie until after the last of the three new SW films is out and done. Ain't no way any other SF film project can compete with that. - jms 21 Nov 1998

(* italics added)

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Oh how wrong he was!

IMO the "Lord of the Rings" trilogy is making the new Star Wars Pre-qual trilogy seem like a waste of time. Actually GL himself is making the new Star Wars Pre-qual seem like a waste of time.

Either way, its best that anything B5 has waited until Star Wars is spent (read: people are getting tired of it) and that Lord of the Rings has run its course and left others floundering in its wake.

IMO the "Lord of the Rings" trilogy is making the new Star Wars Pre-qual trilogy seem like a waste of time. Actually GL himself is making the new Star Wars Pre-qual seem like a waste of time.

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I agree completely.

I guess I can understand why at one time, JMS would not have wanted to compete with Star Wars, but I think it's pretty obvious now that B5 *could* compete with Star Wars and possibly do quite well (okay, maybe not in $$$, but at least in quality).

Besides, movies of a similar genre could easily be released a few months apart. Star Wars may make a good spring/summer movie, but B5 movie(s) could always be released in the fall like LotR.

In fact, while I'm guessing the plausibility of this may not be very high, how fitting would it be if a series of B5 movies could take LotR's place in Decembers, one movie to be released one per year for several consecutive years. Trilogies are pretty standard, but the number five is more fitting for Babylon 5. Five years of five consecutive B5 movies would be awesome. Again, I know that may not be realistic, I'm just arguing what would be nice.

In fact, while I'm guessing the plausibility of this may not be very high, how fitting would it be if a series of B5 movies could take LotR's place in Decembers, one movie to be released one per year for several consecutive years. Trilogies are pretty standard, but the number five is more fitting for Babylon 5. Five years of five consecutive B5 movies would be awesome. Again, I know that may not be realistic, I'm just arguing what would be nice.

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Well, this sounds pretty cool (notice: sounds), but as good as B5 is, I would guess that keeping the good quality over 5 feature films even for B5 would be hard, thus making this unrealistic. But only as an idea or a dream, its ok

Well, this sounds pretty cool (notice: sounds), but as good as B5 is, I would guess that keeping the good quality over 5 feature films even for B5 would be hard, thus making this unrealistic. But only as an idea or a dream, its ok

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Why? You don't think JMS has five good ideas left in him? The Lord of the Rings films had no problem in maintaining good quality over three rather long feature films. If you have good writing, good production, and good acting, you can have as many good movies as you can afford to make.

Aisling

I don't know though. I still have a hard time seeing B5 take on that level of a franchise as LoTR and Trek have done. Not saying the quality wont be there, but its public interest that still has me guessing. I suppose I still believe that even though DVD sales were strong, B5 is still a "clut following" show. At least it seems like it to me...

That being said I still am looking forward to at least 1 feature film just for the experience.

I don't know though. I still have a hard time seeing B5 take on that level of a franchise as LoTR and Trek have done. Not saying the quality wont be there, but its public interest that still has me guessing. I suppose I still believe that even though DVD sales were strong, B5 is still a "clut following" show. At least it seems like it to me...

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And Trek was a cult TV show and X-Men was a cult comic book. Advertising and the hardcore fans of a property will, if there are enough of them, "open" a film its first week or weekend. But only word-of-mouth will sustain a film over weeks and weeks and make it a real success. And that word-of-mouth has to draw people who are only marginally aware of the title and the significant others of the slightly curious to say, "OK, let's check this out." If enough people do this for a B5 film (and especially if enough people go back to see the film a second and third time, which it the only way a film really becomes a blockbuster), then it will cease to be a "cult" title regardless of its origins. How many people who have made two X-Men films such huge hits do you think ever read the comic books?

Movies work based on what they are, not the source material. That's why lousy movies based on good novels flop, and good movies based on lousy novels can do well.

If there is a B5 theatrical film and it makes money Warner Bros. will be begging for a sequel, and another and another as long as the money keeps coming in.

Regards,

Joe

in the immortal words of Freddie Mercury....

''I WANT IT ALL, AND I WANT IT NOW!!''

:devil:

If there is a B5 theatrical film and it makes money Warner Bros. will be begging for a sequel, and another and another as long as the money keeps coming in.

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I don't think he's disputing that...but a sequel couldn't be rushed through all the stages: writing, pre-production, principal photography, post-production, editing, marketing etc. etc. all in the space of under one year.

The LotR movies avoided that by getting all of the preproduction parts and most of the principal photography done in a oner before the release of the first movie, leaving only post-production and reshoots for each subsequent movie.

I don't think that WB will be fronting the money for 5 B5 movies right now, no matter how good the DVD sales are!!!

VB

Joe I agree with your point and your example, but I suppose here is where I think the issue *might* arise.

I was one of those people who never read the XMen comics or watched the cartoon, but saw both movies. It looked interesting because:

a) I knew what it was (had heard of it via the cartoon)
b) Recognized several reputable actors/actoresses in it such as, Patrick Stewart, Halle Berry, Famke Janssen, Ian McKellen, Rebecca Romjin-Stamos even Hugh Jackman.
c) I really wanted to see Rebecca Romjin-Stamos in nothing but paint.
d) The trailers showed it to look like a fun movie with some great special effects and an interesting story.

I probably wouldn't have watched it, given all the above, except for some recognizable faces in the movie. This is what will make or break the B5 movie. Yes, they do have to keep the original cast members in this movie for it to be a success with current B5 fans, or there will be trouble. But the rest of the world out there will probably only recognize Bruce Boxlightner (and some might not even recognize him) and Walter Koeing. They will need to find a way to put some larger name stars in there to draw those casual viewers or word of mouth people who are debating on going or not. If it is a movie with a bunch of people no one ever heard of, then it might not work.

That is my only concern and Im curious to see how they handle it. (assuming it is indeed a movie of course).

They will need to find a way to put some larger name stars in there to draw those casual viewers or word of mouth people who are debating on going or not. If it is a movie with a bunch of people no one ever heard of, then it might not work.

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I don't understand this view. If this were the case then no independent film would ever become a hit, and yet we know that happens. Star Trek didn't become a film franchise because it added lots of "name" stars to the line-up. There isn't an actor in the entire cast of The Lord of the Rings who could "open" a film on his own prior to the trilogy's release. The closest thing to a "movie star" the film had was Christopher Lee - or rather Christopher Lee 30 years ago. (As Dracula Lee was a box office draw, but he hasn't exactly been Harrison Ford or Tom Cruise in the 80s or the 90s. Viggo Mortensen is something of a leading man and Hidalgo and his next film might even make him a legit movie star - but A Perfect Murder hadn't at the time he became Peter Jackson's back-up choice for the role of Aragorn.)

I don't think a B5 film would need "movie stars" or even "name actors" to succeed. I think it would need to be a good film in and of itself, tell a compelling story that could easily and clearly be encapsulated in theatrical trailers and TV spots and have some kick-ass stunts and FX for eye-candy (especially important in those trailers and TV spots) I think most people who hear good things about a movie from their friends and then see a commercial or trailer that reinforces what the friends have said will be inclined to go see the film - with or without actors they recognize.

OTOH I certainly wouldn't try to talk JMS out of writing a scene that featured Rebecca Romjin-Stamos in nothing but paint if he were so inclined.

Regards,

Joe

But the rest of the world out there will probably only recognize Bruce Boxlightner (and some might not even recognize him) and Walter Koeing.

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Hey, don't forget Jeff Conaway was in Grease, and Stephen Furst was in Animal House. Granted, I've never seen either of those, but surely lots of other people have. (I know, I know; those are outdated examples; i'm just jokin' around.)

I've been wrestling with the idea of how JMS can package this thing to make it fit for the masses, while still appealing to the loyal fan base. If it is a cinema feature, we know we will go and see it, so in a sense, that renders us less important. So it's Joe Schmoe that needs to be marketed to. Babylon 5 carries so much baggage, I don't know how he expects the neophyte audience to catch up, even the Telepath War has its roots in all five seasons of the show. Re-introducing all the characters in will make for bags of exposition. I'm not saying it can't be done (or hasn't) but I'm curious to see how effective it will be.

Big name celebrities would likely break JMS's budget if he were doing a theatrical feature. He's got a reputation for being thrifty with a buck and I think that will work to his detriment. The might hold him to that $35 million price estimate he made in 1998. Now traditionally, if you have a winning concept, you can leave the stars out and go for second-tier actors - it worked in Jurassic Park, Independence Day, hell, even Star Wars. That allows you to spend your money on sets, effects, and other necessities. He did, however, bring in Martin Sheen for River of Souls, so he may opt for somewhat recognizeable actors to play ancillary characters that wouldn't break the bank.

Viggo Mortensen is something of a leading man and Hidalgo and his next film might even make him a legit movie star - but A Perfect Murder hadn't at the time he became Peter Jackson's back-up choice for the role of Aragorn.)

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Who was Peter Jackson's first choice for the role of Aragorn? Hard to imagine anybody else in the role now.

Who was Peter Jackson's first choice for the role of Aragorn? Hard to imagine anybody else in the role now.

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Tell me about it! There is no way that I can see Stuart Townsend as Aragorn after having come to love Viggo's portrayal in the LOTR movies.

I don't know enough about studio shennanigans, but is it possible that this new B5 project could be a movie for a premium movie network like Showtime or HBO? Would that be a feasible avenue for the creation and broadcast of this new project?

I don't know enough about studio shennanigans, but is it possible that this new B5 project could be a movie for a premium movie network like Showtime or HBO? Would that be a feasible avenue for the creation and broadcast of this new project?

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Bite your tongue! (This is my greatest fear, having no access to either channel )

I agree with Joe DeM on this, though. If the movie is as good as we know it can be, based on script and music alone (the strong points of the series) then people will go see it. I remember some pretty big pictures of the past that didn't have name stars (like Gallipoli or Excalibur) that did quite well, because they were compelling stories and had a good score. The score is important - one of the greatest flicks of all time, They Might be Giants, is almost unknown because the score doesn't seem to resonate.

On a side note, I would contest that LOTR maintained its quality over even three flicks (and would maintain the same about Star Wars) but that is truly a side issue!

RE: Aragorn: I have no idea who the original actor was (since I've never heard either Jackson or Mortensen mention a name when telling the story), but he evidently quit after filming had already started and Viggo was contacted in the States, offered the part, and given a very short deadline for answering. If I recall correctly he wasn't familiar with the books and hadn't seen a script, and was convinced to take the part by his teenage son - who had read the books.

I don't know enough about studio shennanigans, but is it possible that this new B5 project could be a movie for a premium movie network like Showtime or HBO? Would that be a feasible avenue for the creation and broadcast of this new project?

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Sure, but that would still make it a made-for-cable TV movie, just with more leeway in terms of language and nudity, and a slightly bigger budget. Jeremiah was done for Showtime, and SG-1 and the most recent version of The Outer Limits both ran on that network, while HBO has done any number of original movies in addition to series like The Sopranos and Sex and the City. But HBO or Showtime vs. Sci-Fi or USA Network is a difference of "where it would be" rather than "what it would be".

I don't know how he expects the neophyte audience to catch up, even the Telepath War has its roots in all five seasons of the show. Re-introducing all the characters in will make for bags of exposition. I'm not saying it can't be done (or hasn't) but I'm curious to see how effective it will be.

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This is discussed further up the thread, and I still think it is a non-issue. It is a bit like deciding that you can't make a film about the Cold War today without first explaining all four years of WWII, which produced the Cold War and would have shaped all your characters, and then all four years of WWI, which produced WWII.

All the new audience needs to know for a B5 film is enough about the characters, relationships, etc. so that they can follow the story being told to them at this moment. To believe otherwise is to believe that nobody could have started watching the series after the first season - that no episode would be intelligible to a newcomer, which obviously isn't the case.

Someone watching, say, a telepath war film would need to know who Lyta Alexander is at the moment that film begins - not who she was six or seven years earlier. Because Lyta's arc in such a film would take her from where she is at the start of the story to where she ends up. We might get glimpses into her earlier character, but they wouldn't be necessary. And while we might get more out of this hypothetical film knowing the backstory of the characters, a total B5 newbie could also get a totally entertaining experience out of what he sees on the screen - just as someone who never read a Superman comic or any of the old cartoons or the TV series could enjoy the first Christopher Reeve film even if the public phone joke made no sense because he or she didn't remember phone booths and didn't know that Superman had ever changed in one.

We didn't need to know the whole story of Bilbo's journey with the dwarves to the East to enjoy The Lord of the Rings, but those of us who did got just that little extra bit out of some of the scenes. We have to resist the completist, fan-boy impulse that obssesses over tiny and obscure story details and can't differentiate between vital story points and more-or-less meaningless ones. (I think this impulse is also behind some of the really implausible subject matter suggestions like The Dilgar War, Valen's Shadow War, The First Ones Beyond the Rim and The Humans on the Vorlon Homeworld circa 1,000,000 C.E. that keep coming up - details that people are curious about but which would either make deadly dull dramas no matter how you handled them or which would have such limited appeal that no studio or network would ever touch them.) There are any number of B5 stories that can be told without larding them with backstory. A Call to Arms didn't need to recapitulate the entire story of the Earth-Minbar War, the Babylon Project, the Shadow Vorlon War and the foundation of the Interstellar Alliance to tell its story, though it probably mentioned all of these things in passing. It managed to tell a self-contained and thoroughly entertaining story in a mere 92 minutes or so without devoting too many of those minutes to exposition. Thirdspace managed a similar feat. Why all the sudden anxiety about how much backstory "has" to go in?

Regards,

Joe

Thirdspace managed a similar feat. Why all the sudden anxiety about how much backstory "has" to go in?

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But that's just it, I honestly don't think I could have enjoyed Thirdspace *at all* if I didn't know and understand the entire story arc.

I'm also among those, let's say "concerned", about how much exposition may or may not be necessary in a possible B5 motion-picture.

Just to throw out an example here, everyone knows what a more-or-less horrid flop Star Trek Nemesis was. I don't know how many of you saw it, but at the end of Nemesis, Data dies. Now, to myself and several of my friends, this was shocking. We had spent the past 12 years on-and-off getting to know this character, and then he died. Meanwhile, several other theater-goers that evening burst into laughter when the crew of the Enterprise was seen mourning Data's loss. Clearly those were viewers who had not watched the previous films, to say nothing of all 7 years of the series to begin with.

I'm desperately afraid that a B5 motion-picture could easily fall into the same pit. Yes, JMS would never create anything as god-awful as Nemesis, but none-the-less I'm concerned that without a significant amount of plot exposition the "audience at large" will be lost on major plot points.

Consider, if you knew *nothing* about the Psi Corps, wouldn't the entire "Telepath War" seem kind of silly? I had a hard time not viewing Byron as a dumb-hippy, and I'd had the benefit of the previous 4 seasons under my belt. How would the "Telepaths for a Telepath Homeworld!" come off in front of an audience that never knew what Bester did to Mr. Garibaldi, never knew about Ivanova's mother, never saw dozens of sleeper tubes filled with telepaths living in eternal agony, etc.

Without all that history, it would be VERY hard to see why telepaths would want to *fight* the Psi Corps.

Similarly, without knowing that Edgars Industries tried to effectively wipe out human telepaths, it would be very hard to understand why the Psi Corps acts the way it does.

Again, I'd describe myself as "concerned", I think that JMS can probably pull it off, but I think he'll be equally pressed to do so. Maybe this is just jitters left over from "Legend of the Rangers", I don't know.

I don't understand this view. If this were the case then no independent film would ever become a hit, and yet we know that happens.

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Joe I think I know the point you are trying to make, but independent film success doesn't exactly solidify your point as much as it does mine. Independent films are no where near blockbuster status. 9 out of 10 people only hear about an independent film because they see it nominated for awards a year after it was out at the Oscars, because those awards shows get off on them. They are not for the masses --- UNLESS they win a few Oscars, then people will watch them out of curiousity.

I guess before this gets into things too much, we should determine how big of a hit it would need to be to be considered a success, which is somewhat tougher. I'm sure it will do fine, but will it do well enough to warrant a sequel, or to bring B5 to more mainstream like Trek had in the 80s? Not sure. Either way I still look forward to whatever is in store.