Let's speculate on THE HAND(spoilers)

Let\'s speculate on THE HAND(spoilers)

Ok here's a thread to speculate on THE HAND. And I'll start with my own hypothesis... THE HAND is just yet another First One race, period. But long tiem ago, when all First Ones lived together, they where totally chaotics and destructives. Shadows you're thinking ? Nope. Because Shadows despite their chaotic nature, where totally and strongly devoted to Lorien. So they were in "control". But not THE HAND. they thought they had nothing to care about Lorien, and just put a big problem to the Vorlons, responsibles to the order. So after bug wars (maybe even Vorlons/Shadows side-to-side against The Hand), they were once for all banished in a parralele universe. And everybody almost forgot about them. By accident the B5 crew found the "Relic" in Thirdspace, kind of door to this universe. But at the end, the Relic is "closed" for good, with no "bad". Maybe there's more door, or maybe a single ship from Thirdspace survived and helped to open an other door from this side of the universe. And THEY WANT to come back, because their brothers (Vorlons, Shadows, etc) are gone forever, so they can return without any risks of real danger. And at the end, all that speculations about THE HAND being way more powerfull thans the Shadows are just from a poor prisoner trying to save his butt. They are in reality no more, no less powerfull than the others First Ones.
What did you thinks ? What's are your hypothesis on the big new evil ?

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When I said my quarters were cold, I did not mean "Oh, I think it is a little chilly in here. Perhaps I'll throw a blanket on the bed." No! I said it was cold! As in, "Oh look - my left arm has snapped off like an icicle and shattered on the floor!"
- Londo

Re: Let\'s speculate on THE HAND(spoilers)

I am thinking that the Hand might be

<table bgcolor=black><tr><td bgcolor=black><font size=1 color=white>Spoiler:</font></td></tr><tr><td><font size=2 color=black> the second ones, a race born after Lorien and before the Shadows. I am guessing the force of Light that imprisoned the Hand was Lorien. Perhaps the conflict between the Hand and Lorien is why he decided to teach the other First Ones to be Guardians of the younger races. Or, you could think of it this way. Lorien Vs Hand = Vorlons Vs Shadows = ISA Vs Drakh. The cycle keeps repeating itself </font></td></tr></table>

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Never start a fight, but ALWAYS finish it.

" The dogmas of the quiet past are inadequate for the stormy present. The occasion is piled high with difficulty, and we must rise to the occasion. We can not escape history. We will be remembered, in spite of ourselves. The fiery trial through which we pass will light us down in honor or dishonor, to the last generation. We shall nobly save, or meanly lose our last best hope."

[This message has been edited by Cern (edited January 21, 2002).]

Re: Let\'s speculate on THE HAND(spoilers)

Cern - I doubt it, since there is already a race in the position. They're called the Triad, and there is no way they're behind that kinda destruction (since they like younger races).

Although JMS may contradict that, so it may be wrong. Hope it isn't though, as the author of the first ones backstory did a great job.

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Marc Cosgrove

"From chaos, order came. As was inevitable." -Summoning light

Re: Let\'s speculate on THE HAND(spoilers)

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dark Lord:
there is already a race in the position. They're called the Triad
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<table bgcolor=black><tr><td bgcolor=black><font size=1 color=white>Spoiler:</font></td></tr><tr><td><font size=2 color=black> They are from AOG, yes? well, History can be revised. Plus, arn't the Triad just an offshoot of Loriens people?

Ya see, I was raised Catholic. I look at stuff through that lens. So If Lorien is God for all intents and purposes, than the Hand is the Devil.

You gotta remember, the big Space Starfish ships in the movie are NOT the Hand. Kafta specifically said the Ships are "toys" given to races that Serve the Hand. The ships in the show were the Hands version of the Drakh.
</font></td></tr></table>



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Never start a fight, but ALWAYS finish it.

" The dogmas of the quiet past are inadequate for the stormy present. The occasion is piled high with difficulty, and we must rise to the occasion. We can not escape history. We will be remembered, in spite of ourselves. The fiery trial through which we pass will light us down in honor or dishonor, to the last generation. We shall nobly save, or meanly lose our last best hope."

Re: Let\'s speculate on THE HAND(spoilers)

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Cern:


<table bgcolor=black><tr><td bgcolor=black><font size=1 color=white>Spoiler:</font></td></tr><tr><td><font size=2 color=black> They are from AOG, yes? well, History can be revised. Plus, arn't the Triad just an offshoot of Loriens people?

Ya see, I was raised Catholic. I look at stuff through that lens. So If Lorien is God for all intents and purposes, than the Hand is the Devil.

You gotta remember, the big Space Starfish ships in the movie are NOT the Hand. Kafta specifically said the Ships are "toys" given to races that Serve the Hand. The ships in the show were the Hands version of the Drakh.
</font></td></tr></table>

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, and no they're not an offshoot of Lorien. They just look up to Lorien. I don't think the Triad require spoilers btw.

Well, nothing is ever that black and white. The devil for example has never wiped out the world, while God has. And what would be the motive behind the hand?

I haven't seen the movie so I cannot tell, based on the trailors and other info talked about I think they're part of the thirdspace race. To me they're thirdspace aliens with massive telepathic powers who take over powerful races and make em destroy each other. And the Hand are thirdspaces 'drakh' so to speak. But like I said, I haven't seen the movie so I'm probably way off.

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Marc Cosgrove

"From chaos, order came. As was inevitable." -Summoning light

Re: Let\'s speculate on THE HAND(spoilers)

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dark Lord:
Cern - I doubt it, since there is already a race in the position. They're called the Triad, and there is no way they're behind that kinda destruction (since they like younger races).

Although JMS may contradict that, so it may be wrong. Hope it isn't though, as the author of the first ones backstory did a great job.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wasnt this Triad race only described in a board game or something of the like? I dont think their names or anything about them ever came up in the series that I saw. If it was in such a medium, it may not be considered cannon by JMS.

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'I don't believe in the no-win scenario' - JTK

Re: Let\'s speculate on THE HAND(spoilers)

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Recoil:
Wasnt this Triad race only described in a board game or something of the like? I dont think their names or anything about them ever came up in the series that I saw. If it was in such a medium, it may not be considered cannon by JMS.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not exactly, they were explained in source books that go over the background of races. Thier names probably didn't come up because they use avatars to represent their race instead of their true form.

JMS has a letter of sorts that comes with one of the books, he basically states that AOG is very accurate, canonical and is listed as a source for writers. So if a writer needs info and JMS isn't around, they consult AOG. He may have changed his mind however, or may contradict the 'war of ancients' book. I've sent an e-mail asking about it, but the chances of him replying are slim to none.

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Marc Cosgrove

"From chaos, order came. As was inevitable." -Summoning light

Re: Let\'s speculate on THE HAND(spoilers)

As for the Triad being the race between Lorien and the Shadows, remember the Apocalypse Box was "older than the Shadows but younger than Lorien" so there could be a LOT of species that we don't know about.

Now, does anyone but me think the Apocalypse Box may have a connection to the Hand?

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Never start a fight, but ALWAYS finish it.

" The dogmas of the quiet past are inadequate for the stormy present. The occasion is piled high with difficulty, and we must rise to the occasion. We can not escape history. We will be remembered, in spite of ourselves. The fiery trial through which we pass will light us down in honor or dishonor, to the last generation. We shall nobly save, or meanly lose our last best hope."

Re: Let\'s speculate on THE HAND(spoilers)

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Cern:
As for the Triad being the race between Lorien and the Shadows, remember the Apocalypse Box was "older than the Shadows but younger than Lorien" so there could be a LOT of species that we don't know about.

Now, does anyone but me think the Apocalypse Box may have a connection to the Hand?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Perhaps the box was made by the Triad. They took an active role in teaching the younger races, it may be a tool they used. *shrugs* But yeah, I can understand 'the hand' being left out of the history if perhaps there was a cover up or something.


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Marc Cosgrove

"From chaos, order came. As was inevitable." -Summoning light

Re: Let\'s speculate on THE HAND(spoilers)

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dark Lord:
I can understand 'the hand' being left out of the history if perhaps there was a cover up or something.


<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hmm...maybe like the 3SA being covered up by Sheridan.

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Never start a fight, but ALWAYS finish it.

" The dogmas of the quiet past are inadequate for the stormy present. The occasion is piled high with difficulty, and we must rise to the occasion. We can not escape history. We will be remembered, in spite of ourselves. The fiery trial through which we pass will light us down in honor or dishonor, to the last generation. We shall nobly save, or meanly lose our last best hope."

Re: Let\'s speculate on THE HAND(spoilers)

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dark Lord:
I can understand 'the hand' being left out of the history if perhaps there was a cover up or something.


<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hmm...maybe like the 3SA being covered up by Sheridan.

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Never start a fight, but ALWAYS finish it.

" The dogmas of the quiet past are inadequate for the stormy present. The occasion is piled high with difficulty, and we must rise to the occasion. We can not escape history. We will be remembered, in spite of ourselves. The fiery trial through which we pass will light us down in honor or dishonor, to the last generation. We shall nobly save, or meanly lose our last best hope."

Re: Let\'s speculate on THE HAND(spoilers)

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dark Lord:
Not exactly, they were explained in source books that go over the background of races. Thier names probably didn't come up because they use avatars to represent their race instead of their true form.

JMS has a letter of sorts that comes with one of the books, he basically states that AOG is very accurate, canonical and is listed as a source for writers. So if a writer needs info and JMS isn't around, they consult AOG. He may have changed his mind however, or may contradict the 'war of ancients' book. I've sent an e-mail asking about it, but the chances of him replying are slim to none.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What is this AOG?
Also is there a place where one can get this 'War of Ancients' book?

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'I don't believe in the no-win scenario' - JTK

Re: Let\'s speculate on THE HAND(spoilers)

Cern - Or the first ones simply couldn't be bothered to mention their 'enemy' since they thought the hand were beaten.

Recoil - www.agentsofgaming.com

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Marc Cosgrove

"From chaos, order came. As was inevitable." -Summoning light

Re: Let\'s speculate on THE HAND(spoilers)

You know to be perfectly honest I'm still trying to figure out *the hand*

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Re: Let\'s speculate on THE HAND(spoilers)

Never ask the Shadow Nitpicking Team to speculate. You will end up with a fanfiction story. I wondered if this is a valid form of speculation, and decided to try. For the hell of it. To create some gleeful chaos.

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There are races billions of years older than ours. They once walked among the stars like giants, built huge empires and fought great wars.

In this galaxy, early sentients were diverse and different. Lorien and some others were born as beings of energy, immortal and immaterial. They were the first to attain sentience, explore, learn and eventually teach.

Not a billion years had passed when new races appeared and developed starflight. On a remote world on the Rim, curious and communicative insects solved the mysteries of life and death, grew their first ships and learned to travel in hyperspace. Elsewhere, squid-like creatures swimming in a dense atmosphere started wondering about what lay above and outside. They too had soon built ships and left to explore.

And somewhere, the last of natural energy beings appeared. They were not immortal, needing constant replenishment to survive and grow. Their ancestors were efficient predators, and so were their offspring. They quickly developed societies, intellect and sentience. But they never got along with others, disgusted and annoyed by beings of matter.

As their culture developed, they chose a path distinctive only for them. While the Shadows learned to exploit hyperspace, the Hand wandered into other dimensions. While the Shadows learned to build massive fleets in a moment, the Hand perfected telepathy for defense and attack, control and communication.

Seeing only beings of matter around them and generally disillusioned with their neighbours (who didn't help it by being prejudiced and trying to invade often) the Hand chose isolation. When their territory was attacked during another squabble of neighbouring First Ones, they finally lost balance and deemed others unworthy. They would conquer the galaxy for themselves.

And they almost did, for nobody but the Sigma walkers could match their ability of dimensional travel. Nobody except the First One could match their telepathic abilities. One opponent fell or fled after another, until they finally stumbled upon the Shadows. This race had always enjoyed developing weapons and fighting.

Facing an enemy capable of controlling their strongest minds, the Shadows made a tentative alliance with Lorien. In exchange for protecting their homeworld, they promised to oppose, return and not stop until the Hand was defeated.

They learned to integrate their own minds with technology to gain immunity from telepathic intrusion. Since then, every attempt to scan a Shadow has ended in extreme discomfort or insanity.

Leaving their homeworld to Lorien's custody, they spread and retreated, disappeared and faked a defeat. While retreating, they sowed all suitable planets with nanomachines programmed to build a new fleet. This fleet would be sentient mind, a mind run by machines, a huge neural network of ships and computers, immune to telepathy and beyond any attempt of prediction.

After a few years, the Shadows returned to their homeworld, set up the original Eye and told the fleet to awaken. Ships started appearing from unknown and uninhabited planets, gathering, communicating and searching their masters. The fleet soon organized itself and established lines of command, and the first Shadow War began without anyone knowing it.

The Hand found their power crumbling and their existance threatened. For them, Shadow fleets were slow, but uncontrollable and indestructible. Every planet they reached, they also destroyed. After last attempts at resistance, the Hand retreated to another dimension, leaving the hostile world of matter behind. Their ways of return were cut off, their jump gates destroyed. Only a few cities went undetected, and these had none. But a few did have communications facilities...

...which somebody, a few billion years later, found and activated. Having learned of the departure of First Ones, the Hand decided to force its way back into their home dimension, and take the galaxy which rightfully belonged to them.

Using their excellent telepathic abilities and knowledge of psychology, they quickly "converted" the beings who found their city... into doubtless followers. They would instruct and help them... to build a jump gate for their return.

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A lousy attempt at fanfic, and not a good explanation... but better than nothing, and one of many possible explanations.

[This message has been edited by Lennier (edited January 21, 2002).]

Re: Let\'s speculate on THE HAND(spoilers)

The hand would then follow by de-stabalizing the Alliance, through the allies they have made, as they teach the knowledge needed for thier own release. The wars that break out would be the perfect distraction for thier return. It is also possible that the 'crossing' would leave them vulnerable for a short while, and drawing the attention of the Alliance away is just a good way to guarante safety.

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Re: Let\'s speculate on THE HAND(spoilers)

I have come up with a few theories about who the Hand and/or their dark servants could be - either or all could be right or very wrong. Of course, only time and a series will tell.

1) The portal to "another space" as described by G'Kar sounds a lot like the portal to Thirdspace that was found by Ivanova, Sheridan, and the others. Also, remember that G'Kar was not in the Thirdspace movie (I think), so he may not know as much about the portal as the other main characters would. Somehow, another portal to Thirdspace was opened in this City of Darkness and the Thirdspace aliens are on the prowl again.

2) In the movie "Thirdspace" the Vorlons (through Lyta) tell of the time that they opened the portal to this new dimension and the Thirdspace aliens ran amuck in our galaxy. She tells Sheridan and the others that the mind control of the Thirdspace aliens was so powerful that many Vorlons went mad and became the servants of the enemy. The shape of the head and shoulders of the big black alien on board the Hand ship looked kinda like a robed and ragged Vorlon encounter suit, so I have to wonder if these crazed and evil Vorlons (servants of a powerful force from another space - as described by Minister Khafka) have returned to take out their revenge on the galaxy that banished them.

3) From the Crusade episode "The Path of Sorrows," we know that Galen and his love Isabelle were betrayed by other Technomages of their order. Before they could warn the others, they were trapped on some planet and Isabelle subsequently died. Could this black figure have been some sort of Technomage or perhaps one of the Mage/Shadowcreatures that would have shown up in one of the future episodes of Crusade?
Perhaps this treachery of lending their services to a dark and powerful enemy was what Galen and Isabelle wanted to warn the other Technomages about. The timeframe would be just about right in terms of the Crusade story still being a couple of years away.


Alright, that's my 2 cents, and I think that each of the explanations could make a plausable storyline. Either way, they would make the Thirdspace movie more of a part of the whole Babylon 5 story than it appeared to be when it first aired - not just a stand alone story, but a key to something larger.

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You are finite. Zathras is finite. This...is wrong tool.

jtk724@hotmail.com

Re: Let\'s speculate on THE HAND(spoilers)

did the voice of the Hand agent sound familiar to anyone else? I kept thinking of His Divine Shadow from LEXX. Does anyone know who did his voice?

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Never start a fight, but ALWAYS finish it.

" The dogmas of the quiet past are inadequate for the stormy present. The occasion is piled high with difficulty, and we must rise to the occasion. We can not escape history. We will be remembered, in spite of ourselves. The fiery trial through which we pass will light us down in honor or dishonor, to the last generation. We shall nobly save, or meanly lose our last best hope."

Re: Let\'s speculate on THE HAND(spoilers)

did the voice of the Hand agent sound familiar to anyone else? I kept thinking of His Divine Shadow from LEXX. Does anyone know who did his voice?

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Never start a fight, but ALWAYS finish it.

" The dogmas of the quiet past are inadequate for the stormy present. The occasion is piled high with difficulty, and we must rise to the occasion. We can not escape history. We will be remembered, in spite of ourselves. The fiery trial through which we pass will light us down in honor or dishonor, to the last generation. We shall nobly save, or meanly lose our last best hope."

Re: Let\'s speculate on THE HAND(spoilers)

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Zathras:
3) From the Crusade episode "The Path of Sorrows," we know that Galen and his love Isabelle were betrayed by other Technomages of their order. Before they could warn the others, they were trapped on some planet and Isabelle subsequently died. Could this black figure have been some sort of Technomage or perhaps one of the Mage/Shadowcreatures that would have shown up in one of the future episodes of Crusade? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Without going into the specifics, the events surrounding Isabelle's death and the other Technomages' betrayal are described in the Technomage trilogy, which is considered canon. And from what I remember, I don't think that the new enemy could have been involved.

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"Isn't the universe an amazing place? I wouldn't live anywhere else." - G'Kar, B5: Rangers
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