The Word "Crusade"

Re: The Word \"Crusade\"

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Our own spook boys thought they could Use & Control this nutcase. They made him rich.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

He was already rich. His father was one of the richest men in Saudi Arabia, and Osama had more than enough money to be a terrorist without any help from us. He was one of several competing "nationalist" leaders we supported in their war against the Soviets. It was a damned important war, too, the first real Soviet defeat of the Cold War, and the beginning of the end for Soviet communism.

Our great mistake in the region was trusting Saudi Arabia and Pakistan to help rebuild Afghanistan into a half-way decent society. We did this precisely because we didn't want to act as the imperialist power we are constantly portrayed as. We wanted the country's Muslim neighbors to help get it back on its feet.

Instead, thanks largely to Saudi indifference and the actions of the Pakistani secret police, we got the Taliban, who support Bin Laden in large part because he helps them against that still very active opposition of the other freedom fighters who helped evict the Soviets. (Rather like the Bolsheviks, ironically, the Taliban let others do much of the heavy-lifting involved in ousting the old regime, then set about ensuring that they were the "last man standing" by murdering and intimidating their former compatriots.)

When boasting about how they defeated the Soviets, the Taliban conveniently forget that it was only after Russian airpower was neutralized by U.S. Stinger missles that the war began to go their way.

P.S.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>But the following report from the semi-official 'N.Y. Times' makes it clear that either Americans are being lied to by the those in the highest places - which if true has the gravest implications - or Washington's New World Order is ruled by criminally negligent morons.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I can't imagine why anyone would take the paranoid fantasies of "news" sites like the Emperor's New Clothes seriously. Anyone who thinks The New York Times is "semi-official" or that casual differences of minutes in time reports probably based on the wrist watches of people separated by thousands of miles mean anything is clearly not living on the same planet the rest of us are.

The simple fact is that anybody - credible or not - can open up a website and publish "news." The last thing we need at the moment is more paranoia. Having looked over a few of the articles at that site, I wouldn't believe these guys if they said the Sun rises in the east. When I was young and stupid I was a great believer in conspiracy theories, but I've grown up and learned both how the world works and how the minds of the paranoid work. I caught the familiar whiff of madness from this site, and I don't think I'll be visiting it again. Somebody needs to tell the editor that The Lone Gunmen as a TV show.

Regards,

Joe

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Joseph DeMartino
Sigh Corps
Pat Tallman Division
joseph-demartino@att.net

[This message has been edited by Joseph DeMartino (edited September 22, 2001).]

Re: The Word \"Crusade\"

FWIW, Osama bin Ladin's ties with the Taliban are strengthened by the fact that one of their leaders is married to one of bin Ladin's Daughters.

Lots of deal making behind the scenes.


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Yes, I like cats too.
Shall we exchange Recipes?

Re: The Word \"Crusade\"

bakana, I must take issue with your post about our education vs that of the Muslim countries. Yes, it is biased here, but not even close to the way it is there. I'm not sure that's what you meant though, so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. But their "education," or lack of it, is a primary cause for the problems they, and we, now face.

Joe, thank you for pointing out the true nature of the terrorists goals. People are eager to put aside the religious aspect of this conflict, ignoring the the true problem. Many are now advocating isolationism, which would make the problem even worse.

I'd also like to point out that the reason Bin Laden and the like were supported by the US more than "freedom fighters" who were more moderate is because they are better warriors. They're more fervant, more insane, and more willing to die for their cause (as we have seen, tragically).

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"You do not make history. You can only hope to survive it."

Re: The Word \"Crusade\"

Well, these religious wars can be a mess, can't they....

If we go with the accepted date of death for Muhammed of 632AD, then in 100 years, Islam swept through Arabia, across Africa, and into Spain and France. In the other direction, it progressed into India.

In 732AD, the Muslim armies were stopped by Charles Martel (recognize the name? ), which literally translates to "Charles the Hammer," at the battle of Tours -- in western Europe, this is the high water mark of Islam.

There was a very strong Muslim presence in Spain for another 700 or so years. In fact, Columbus didn't get approval to sail until the Muslims were finally defeated throughout Spain -- in 1492.

Things in south east Europe were a little more dicey. Vlad IV was a particularly vicious guy in the 1400s who impaled the Muslims (and others) he fought, and got the nickname Dracula, or "son of the Devil."

Moslem armies made it very deep into Central Europe, and only turned back due to internal issues.

Then, of course, there were those pesky barbarians in northern Europe -- which is a different story.

The Crusades as we know them were originally called for in 1095. The first Crusade was successful for a number of reasons, religious fervor being one -- another being that is was a great place to send younger sons of nobles who had nothing to inherit in Europe.

Thus, when they beat back the Moslems, the successful warriors got their own lands, estates, etc. in the Holy Land. Further Crusades were never as successful in part because all the "good" lands were aleady claimed by some other European noble, so why risk your life for somebody else? Besides, it was easier to sack the Christian city of Constantinople (still the capital of the eastern half of the Roman Empire).

In fact the poor treatment by the Crusaders of Constantinople played a significant role in Moslem forces taking the city in 1453 -- finally putting an end to the Roman Empire (but lasting a good 1,000 years past the western half of the Empire).

With the Turks in place in Constantinople, Islam was there to stay in southeastern Europe. The stalemate of Orthodox vs. Catholic vs. Moslem in the Balkans has proved a powderkeg for centuries.

On the good side, the Crusades opened up a treasure trove of lost knowledge to the western Europeans. New trade routes developed and ideas travelled with the merchandise. Exposure to the Greek, Roman, and Arab thinkers and scientists led to the European Renaissance.


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"What's up, Drakh?"

Michael Garibaldi

Re: The Word \"Crusade\"

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR> I must take issue with your post about our education vs that of the Muslim
countries. Yes, it is biased here, but not even close to the way it is there. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I was posting based on personal experience.
What little I was taught about the Crusades in history was heavily biased toward the "It was a Good war to drive the infidels from the Christian Holylands" POV. The crusaders were saints, the Muslims were the bad guys and deserved to be destroyed.


Later, when I got to read some of the True history, I began to realize just how biased that early course was.

It didn't spend more than a few pages on the Crusades, but what little it did present was shameless in the "Whitewash" of the facts.




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Yes, I like cats too.
Shall we exchange Recipes?

Re: The Word \"Crusade\"

For some interesting insight into present day muslim teaching, both good and bad, check out this page by Christy Marx, (writer of Babylon 5: Grail):

http://www.sierratel.com/moonfire/causes/causes2.htm


Christy has posted links to some very thought provoking stuff.

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Yes, I like cats too.
Shall we exchange Recipes?

[This message has been edited by bakana (edited September 24, 2001).]

Re: The Word \"Crusade\"

Posted by drakh, (who is correct, for the crusade for the cup of Christ did turn dark, but ended in the light.)

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>No... I think he used the word to refect that the characters would start with a noble cause, but get so obsessed with it that their actions become corrupted. You can already see this with Gideon's reliance on the Apocalypse Box... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Think about how each of the knights fell into the lies of evil. Evil perpetuates itself like a sickness, infecting everything it touches.

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Re: The Word \"Crusade\"

Thank you, Bakana. I found the article and its links a most interesting reading.

I would recommend it to everyone who has a little time to familiarize oneself with the situation -- the varied links to other sources cover both diplomatic and military, both religious and humanitarian aspects.

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"We are the universe, trying to figure itself out.
Unfortunately we as software lack any coherent documentation."
-- Delenn

[This message has been edited by Lennier (edited September 28, 2001).]