paramount stole it .........

I thought it was pretty evident that Sisko did become a prophet simply from the fact that he was able to pull his wife into that weird wormhole trance that only other Prophets have been able to do. That and the fact that he did allude to the fact that time was no longer a constant to him led me and most other people to believe that he was now a "non-linear" prophet.

The Sisko was much more than a "tool" of the prophets.

------------------
"Dawn's in trouble? Must be Tuesday." -- Buffy Summers, "Once More With Feeling."

i dunno, i just got the sense that the 'non-linear' bit applied to his entire life... and when he said that he'd be back, that would mean that he would some day 'come out' of the wormhole again, meaning his corporial body would still be intact... and the prophets dont have that. so maybe he's *above* the level of a normal human, but i dont think he was at the level of a full prophet so to speak...

but in anycase thats still different from sheridan, who never came back as far as we know, and it was quite clear that sisko would reunite with cassidy someday

------------------
"Every technomage knows the fourteen words to make someone fall in love with you forever. She only needed one. Hello." -Galen, Crusade
### Hi, I'm a sig virus. Please add me to the end of your signature so I can take over the world.### - caught from Saps @ B5MG

I have been a Trek fan since TOS and I liked a great deal of DS9, and also the characters. I was tired of seeing the Enterprise battle the alien of the week for 150 episodes so it was a nice change to see the Trek universe from a completely different angle, and there was an arc to the story, which was basically Sisko's story, plus the war with the Dominion.

In that regard there was a similarity to B5, in just the fact of using a space station instead of the Enterprise. Paramount certainly borrowed the idea from JMS but since they didn't really understand what he was planning, they had to make up their own story. What bothered me was Paramount's constant pressure to keep 5 off the air.

------------------
I always seem to be diagonally parked in a parallel universe.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR> but in anycase thats still different from sheridan, who never came back as far as we know, and it was quite clear that sisko would reunite with cassidy someday <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, I thought both cases were very similar to one another. We never see Sheridan or Sinclair come back, even though there were allusions that they one day would. As far as Siko reuniting with Cassidy, I think you're wrong. The prophets tried to warn Sisko not to marry Cassidy, because they said "she will bring you great saddness" or something to that effect. What they knew all along, and what we found out in the end, is that she would indeed bring Sisko great saddness because he was going to be a prophet from then on out --which would have marked the end of his pysical relationship with his wife and family.

Let's not forget that Sisko essentially "died" when he took that leap off that cavern with Dukhat. What he is now is something altogether different.

As far as Sheridan goes, one could argue that he made the jump to "first one" status in the end -- which would pretty much place him as a god.


------------------
"Dawn's in trouble? Must be Tuesday." -- Buffy Summers, "Once More With Feeling."



[This message has been edited by PsionTen (edited January 15, 2002).]

the exact line is "you will know nothing but sorrow" (saw that ep yesterday). but sisko expressely came out and said he would return to her one day, and given his strength of personality and all that, i'd be very very suprised if he didnt keep that promise. sheridan on the other hand made no such promises, and i think it was made *very* clear in SiL that he and delenn would never see each other again. sinclair's kinda different, i think it was alluded to pretty heavily that he's still around somewhere, especially since delenn lived for so long.

you do have a good point though with the fire cavern (a scene which i personally thought was a bit anticlimatic, as it seemed that the entirety of the prophet storyline was just for sisko to throw a book into a cave)... one could make some arguments against it, perhaps the book and the pagh-waiths(sp?) being in the same place allowed the prophets to pull them all back into the wormhole...

------------------
"Every technomage knows the fourteen words to make someone fall in love with you forever. She only needed one. Hello." -Galen, Crusade
### Hi, I'm a sig virus. Please add me to the end of your signature so I can take over the world.### - caught from Saps @ B5MG

In bet the same people who go round saying "DS9 is rubbish, Babylon 5 was there first and DS9 ripped it off" also regard ds9 as the best Trek.

Look, in my opinion it is the best trek!
Prob cause of the similarities to B5. The story didnt suck in my opinion. I just enjoyed it.
Altho it never truly got tense like B5 did for just about every frelling episode.


------------------
-some must be sacrificed for all to be saved-

Just thought I'd throw some things into the mix.

First off, to the comment of wanting "proof", I don't have the exact link offhand (I might be able to dig it up when I'm less busy), but there are several posts archived on jmsnews.com where he explicitly states the exact dates and paper trails for all his pitches to Paramount and the exact sequence of events re. DS9 coming to fruition. No, there's no written statement by the Paramount execs that "yes, we stole from JMS", but do you expect there to be? The point is the near-endless string of coincidences.

Also, as many have pointed out but it hasn't seem to stick yet, the objection raised has nothing to do with DS9 being a good or bad show or being better or worse than B5 (that's another argument entirely , but that the Paramount execs blatantly copied JMS's ideas as presented to them, then after they had DS9, did everything in their power to stifle B5. Even *then*, there probably wouldn't be such heated passions about it if it wasn't for the fact that, thanks to the way Paramount arranged things, most of the world thinks that B5 was a ripoff of DS9, not the other way around.

Oh, and just a note for those saying that the Sheridan/Sisko thing doesn't track--remember that Paramount saw the original treatment of the B5 arc, which--as has been pointed out and discussed before--most likely involved Sinclair through the entire 5 year arc and ending with him travelling back in time (i.e. the events in War Without End) at the end of the arc. Also note that Sinclair *does* become a prophet of sorts (how else would you describe Valen?), not to mention the debate about Catherine Sakai (sp?) joining him in the past after he helped defeat the Shadows...just hints there for ya all

OK, time to go back to work. I'll see if I can dig up that link sometime. It's on jmsnews.com somewhere though, I read it just last week.

Cheers,
-mcn

Other than get the DS9 pilot on the air before B5, how did Paramount try to stiffle B5?

------------------
"You do not make history. You can only hope to survive it."

but still, one of the biggest things is that ds9 wasn't intended to be an arc show from the beginning... it evolved into one, but it wasnt nearly as thought out and pre-planned as b5... the writers freqeuntly wrote themselves into a situation not knowing what was going to happen next, like in that ridiculous ep when the dominion wipes out the minefield and the huge dominion fleet is coming through the wormhole and the prophets just snuff it out... yeah, they did say there would be a price to pay later and all that, but it just felt *so* anticlimactic...

------------------
"Every technomage knows the fourteen words to make someone fall in love with you forever. She only needed one. Hello." -Galen, Crusade
### Hi, I'm a sig virus. Please add me to the end of your signature so I can take over the world.### - caught from Saps @ B5MG

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>it just felt *so* anticlimactic... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Kinda like the conclusion to the Shadow War. The biggest fleet of all time amasses and what happens? .... The Shadows and Vorlens want the kids to pick if they'd rather go and stay with mommie or daddy.

------------------
"Dawn's in trouble? Must be Tuesday." -- Buffy Summers, "Once More With Feeling."

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Kinda like the conclusion to the Shadow War. The biggest fleet of all time amasses and what happens? .... The Shadows and Vorlens want the kids to pick if they'd rather go and stay with mommie or daddy.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, the alternative was that Mommy and Daddy kill all the children, since there was no way that the Alliance, even with the aid or a handful of First Ones, could have defeated either the Shadow or the Vorlon fleet - much less both together.

The end of the war was no more anticlimactic than the end of The Lord of the Rings - of course, in neither case was that event the point of the story, which was as much concerned with what came after as it was with the War. The end of the Shadow-Vorlon conflict flowed logically from everything we knew about it, and only seems "anti-climactic" if you went for the head-fake and assumed that massing a fleet meant a huge battle, or that B5 was a series about a war.

Regards,

Joe

------------------
Joseph DeMartino
Sigh Corps
Pat Tallman Division
joseph-demartino@att.net

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR> in neither case was that event the point of the story, which was as much concerned with what came after as it was with the War. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I never said the Shadow War was the point of B5, I just said that it was anti-climatic and if you'd think about for a moment or two, you just might agree. Think about how long it took to develop the war arc and how it finally reached the pinnacle and then..... "okay, we're gonna go beyond the rim even though we were gonna blast everyone into smithereens. Be good." I mean c'mon Joe, if that ain't anti-climatic, then the definition must have changed since my grade-school days. HOWEVER, just because its anti-climatic doesn't mean that I don't think its damn good. It's damn good and its anti-climatic.

------------------
"Dawn's in trouble? Must be Tuesday." -- Buffy Summers, "Once More With Feeling."

[This message has been edited by PsionTen (edited January 15, 2002).]

It all comes down to one's expectations...

------------------
'I don't believe in the no-win scenario' - JTK

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR> It all comes down to one's expectations... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'd have to agree with that.

------------------
"Dawn's in trouble? Must be Tuesday." -- Buffy Summers, "Once More With Feeling."

Yeah, Paranoid stole the idea, ironic considering that Lost in Space was stolen from Roddenberry in the '60s. Probably, after the success of DS9 ripping off B5, they decided to avenge that slight by ripping off LIS and Red Dwarf to make V'Ger, um VGR.
But consider this: DS9 may have been a ripoff of B5, but isn't that why it was the best Trek since TOS? They weren't all Roddenberry's nonsensical 'better humans', they could be *people*. Real people with real feelings and ethical dilemmas make better, more interesting stories than plastic people with preprogrammed morals and emotions.
Now, who's taking bets that Enterprise doesn't become as much or more blatant a ripoff? The Vulcans already remind me of the darker side of the Minbari. I won't be surprised if Archer gets replaced next season with a real warhawk, and he gets packed off to Vulcan to convince them to back the 'Federation proposal', and after a retreat to Gol, returns to the Exitprise to go back in time and become Surak.

------------------
Darkwing
Let's..get..dangerous

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>They weren't all Roddenberry's nonsensical 'better humans', they could be *people*. Real people with real feelings and ethical dilemmas make better, more interesting stories than plastic people with preprogrammed morals and emotions.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

but that had *nothing* to do with this supposed rip off b5. the writers and directors werent told 'make these characters more human like b5', they went this direction on their own... if there was a rip off b5, it was only in the initial premise of the show, and these more emotional aspects of most of the characters didnt come into play till later on...

think of it this way... paramount was responsible for pushing ds9 to be like b5 just as tnt would have been responsible for pushing crusade to have wrestlers and scantly clad women. but the bulk of the series arose completely independent of b5.

i think its easy for people to say that ds9 ripped off b5, because then they're allowed to like it even though its trek... let it stand on its own...

------------------
### Hi, I'm a sig virus. Please add me to the end of your signature so I can take over the world.### - caught from Saps @ B5MG

The end of the Shadow War wasn't anticlimactic. Actually, it's quite climactic. The whole parent thing was set up in Season 1 (Vorlons killing off Deathwalker too prevent younger races from getting immortality? hmmm sounds like plot setup to me). The confrontation is climactic, because it logically brings the plot that was setup to the highest point of dramatic action (for that arc) and is a major turning point.

If you think it's anticlimactic, you're just bitching because you didn't get to see what you wanted to see. If you want everything to be solved with big huge battles, then look elsewhere, because Babylon 5 is about something meaningful

------------------
We're all born as molecules in the hearts of a billion stars, molecules that do not understand politics, policies and differences. In a billion years we, foolish molecules forget who we are and where we came from. Desperate acts of ego. We give ourselves names, fight over lines on maps. And pretend our light is better than everyone else's. The flame reminds us of the piece of those stars that live inside us. A spark that tells us: you should know better. The flame also reminds us that life is precious, as each flame is unique. When it goes out, it's gone forever. And there will never be another quite like it

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>ironic considering that Lost in Space was stolen from Roddenberry in the '60s. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Huh???

The only connection I know of between Star Trek and Lost in Space is that both were pitched to CBS. As far as I know (and this comes from David Gerrold, who got it from Roddenberry) when Gene R. pitched Trek to CBS they turned it down on the grounds that they had already bought an outer space show that they liked better - Lost in Space.

Meaning that Irwin Allen had already pitched his series to the network and sold it before anyone at CBS ever heard of Star Trek.

There wasn't any way Allen could have stolen the idea from Roddenberry. (Besides, as everyone knows Irwin Allen was ripping off The Swiss Family Robinson - Space Family Robinson being the working title for the project. I can't see Gene stealing a premise that cheesy. He was stealing from Wagon Train and Horatio Hornblower. )

Regards,

Joe

------------------
Joseph DeMartino
Sigh Corps
Pat Tallman Division
joseph-demartino@att.net

from www.infoplease.com

climax:
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>a decisive moment that is of maximum intensity or is a major turning point in a plot.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The final confrontation between the Shadows and Vorlons was certainly a "decisive moment of maximum density." What else do you call the fate of the galaxy resting in the actions of representatives of all the major races in the galaxy in one spot? I would also call the expulsion of the most powerful beings in the galaxy a "major turning point" in the plot.

Therefore, it was a climax = it was climactical, so it wasn't anti-climactic.

I encourage all of you to look words up before you decide place so much emphasis on what they mean.

------------------
"You do not make history. You can only hope to survive it."

Apart from splitting hairs about the finer points of the english language. Everybody has missed two vital points:
Firstly, personal interpretation. Everybody will have differing ideas. The battle for proxima three can be viewed as an "anti-climax" because earth force backs down because Sheridan happens to give a noble speech. The whole point of it is that JMS wrote this story in order to highlight good and evil lives at home as well as abroad.

Secondly, An all out shadow battle could have had been "climatic". yet that would have destroyed several years of hard work in creating the ultimate sci-fi story! JMS uses force and action where it is needed but he doesn't use it as a solution to everybodys problems.



------------------
"I am Grey. I stand between the candle and the star. We are Grey. We stand between the darkness and the light. I come to take the place that has been prepared for me"