Guess you've had the literature influences thread

Guess you\'ve had the literature influences thread

Today I watched The Deconstruction of Falling Stars and was struck by the Canticle For Leibowitz homage in one segment. I have spotted loads of other references to SF literature and some non-sf.
Although you may all be sick of talking about it, I wondered what others people have spotted. 1984 and Brave New World obviously.
Anyone care to contribute others?

Re: Guess you\'ve had the literature influences thread

Well, it has been pointed out "The Demolished Man" by Alfred Bester.

Bester, hmmmmm.

Re: Guess you\'ve had the literature influences thread

Oooh yes!

Re: Guess you\'ve had the literature influences thr

There are references to the Scifi TV show, The Prisoner, and the ep where they show all those propaganda signs at Psycorps HQ is a reference to the movie They Live, which has the same sort of signs. There are many, but those are the only two I can call up at the moment. Guess the brain is on low today.

Re: Guess you\'ve had the literature influences thr

There are references to the Scifi TV show, The Prisoner, and the ep where they show all those propaganda signs at Psycorps HQ is a reference to the movie They Live, which has the same sort of signs. There are many, but those are the only two I can call up at the moment. Guess the brain is on low today.

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Somehow I doubt JMS was offering a homage to "They Live".

Re: Guess you\'ve had the literature influences thr

I don't know why he wouldn't want to. They Live is a fine film, by a good director, and some political/mind control themes that are rather similar to Psycorps machinations. Maybe you just can't like a film with Rowdy Roddy Piper in it? I'm certainly no fan of his, or his sport, but he worked, in the context of the film. Perhaps Carpenter cast Piper to draw in those he thought most in need of being exposed to his satiric critique of Reagan era politics.

Re: Guess you\'ve had the literature influences thr

JMS has said he did not have Canticle in mind when he cast the Rangers as monks in the post-Great Burn world. Rather he (like Walter M. Miller) was playing with the idea of monks playing the same role after the collapse of a future civilization that they played (in the West) after the collapse of Rome. He had been (and stilll is) working on a play set in the Middle Ages, based Minbari culture, in part, on the society of the people ("those who fight, those who pray, those who work") He had featured monks in the show before and they seemed a natural when it came time to write "Deconstruction". Part way through the writing process the lightbult went off and he realized he was going over the same ground that Miller had and that people would assume this was an hommage to the novel. He toyed with changing the segment, but finally decided that he had arrived at the story by his own road and that it work best as he was writing it.

As for They Live, it is a good film - but I also have to laugh at the notion that JMS was tipping his hat to it. As in many other cases, JMS based something on history, not on another work of fiction that also used the same bit of history. It isn't like They Live was the first film to feature propaganda posters - or that it invented propaganda posters themselves. The things had been around for a good hundred years, just as totalitarian regimes have existed, standard interrogation and torture techniques and various forms of political skulduggery have existed for a long time. To say that JMS took his analogs of these things from particular novels or films is silly when it is clearly more likely that both works of fiction derived from the same real-world examples.

Regards,

Joe

Re: Guess you\'ve had the literature influences thr

I admit that I don't think JMS could be giving more than a nod to They Live, but I DO think that is possible. Of course, we see propaganda posters all the time. But what causes me to link the two is that in both B5, and the movie, they were plain, black and white, with block lettering, and no illustrations whatsoever. That's not your normal propaganda poster, and I've only seen them like that in those two places. It's also possible JMS had them in his subconcious, from seeing the film, or perhaps he came up with them on his own. I don't claim to be a mind reader.

Re: Guess you\'ve had the literature influences thr

I admit that I don't think JMS could be giving more than a nod to They Live, but I DO think that is possible. Of course, we see propaganda posters all the time. But what causes me to link the two is that in both B5, and the movie, they were plain, black and white, with block lettering, and no illustrations whatsoever. That's not your normal propaganda poster, and I've only seen them like that in those two places. It's also possible JMS had them in his subconcious, from seeing the film, or perhaps he came up with them on his own. I don't claim to be a mind reader.

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FWIW, the signs aren't mentioned in the script at all though JMS does specify that every room is white and unadorned, pretty much interchangeable. So it doesn't seem that they were something he thought about while writing the script. The script comes from a member of the art department, though and he wrote: "Motivational posters-very simple" on the script. No telling if they were his idea or if it was suggested in a meeting.

Jan

Re: Guess you\'ve had the literature influences thr

I suppose you could argue that Le Morte d'Arthur by Sir Thomas Malory is a lit. influence for the episode "A Late Delivery from Avalon." That idea is debatable, at best, however.

Other than episode titles,("The War Prayer," "The Wheel of Fire," and "Signs and Portents," for example) I am drawing a blank.
This truly is difficult.

In dialogue, Bester had many verbal acknowledgements to literary influences in the episode "Epiphanies." Think back to his quoting, "For the love of God, Montresor!"

A tough puzzle to fix.

Re: Guess you\'ve had the literature influences thr

JMS has explicitly said that the Arthurian cycle was an influence on the series, and this is seen in many more episodes than "Avalon". But, again, it is a mistake to make the leap from the Arthurian legends being an iinfluence on the story to Mallory's work in particular because there is evidence for the one, but not the other. (If someone quoted specific lines or the show parallelled an incident that is unique to Mallory's retellling it would be one thing, but to cite him as a literary influence rather than Chretien de Troyes, say, seems excessive in the absence of such a specific connection.)

Regards,

Joe

Re: Guess you\'ve had the literature influences thr

"They Live" also has a damn good fight between Piper and Keith David.

Re: Guess you\'ve had the literature influences thr

I admit that I don't think JMS could be giving more than a nod to They Live, but I DO think that is possible. Of course, we see propaganda posters all the time. But what causes me to link the two is that in both B5, and the movie, they were plain, black and white, with block lettering, and no illustrations whatsoever. That's not your normal propaganda poster, and I've only seen them like that in those two places. It's also possible JMS had them in his subconcious, from seeing the film, or perhaps he came up with them on his own. I don't claim to be a mind reader.

Click to expand...

FWIW, the signs aren't mentioned in the script at all though JMS does specify that every room is white and unadorned, pretty much interchangeable. So it doesn't seem that they were something he thought about while writing the script. The script comes from a member of the art department, though and he wrote: "Motivational posters-very simple" on the script. No telling if they were his idea or if it was suggested in a meeting.

Jan

Click to expand...

Thanks, Jan. That seems close to definitive to me. It seems that the signs were designed to blend in with the bland room, and their resemblence to the previously unique signs in They Live is just a coincidence. If someone did see such signs in the movie, and use that idea, consciously, or otherwise, it was most likely someone in the art department.

Re: Guess you\'ve had the literature influences thr

JMS has explicitly said that the Arthurian cycle was an influence on the series, and this is seen in many more episodes than "Avalon".

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I have read that Kosh may be a kind of Merlin figure as he sees the future by remembering it. (Marcus)


I find it really hard to believe that JMS was not influenced by A Canticle For Leibowitz. I guess it was subconscious.

Re: Guess you\'ve had the literature influences thr

I know this has been done to death in various fan circles but. . .Tolkien anyone? The Shadows, the Rangers, the Eye. Oh my! There's more than a smattering of Silmarillion and Lord of the Rings in all this.

Sheridan and Delenn as Aragorn and Arwen. Sinclair as Earendil the Mariner. Garibaldi as Boromir. The possibilities are just too delightful to ignore.

A fellow fan and I were discussing the other night the shocking similarity between the Shadow vessel scream and the cry of the Nazgûl. At least JMS and company got there first on that note.

Parenthetically, it didn't hit me until yesterday when I saw the acronym on another B5 site. . .

LOTR

Legend of the Rangers

Lord of the Rings

Ah, the idiotic little things that make me go hmmmmm

Jacqui

Oh. . .it just hit me, doesn't JMS in the voice-over commentary for "Deconstructing" mention that it was a nod to "Canticle?" I just watched it the other night and I seem to recall him saying that in the commentary. Someone with the DVD on hand might be able to confirm or disprove it however. Mine have already gone back to the library.

Re: Guess you\'ve had the literature influences thr

The Tolkien comparision has been done to death many places. As I recall (and I know someone will correct me if I'm wrong here) JMS has said that he wasn't consciously influenced by Tolkien, but being the literate man that he is and having read all these works, some similar elements may have crept into his writing subconsciously.

As for Canticle, I recall reading about that somewhere, but I've never listened to the commentary. I know the first time I watched the episode I immediately thought of Canticle.

Welcome to the forums by the way.

Re: Guess you\'ve had the literature influences thr

Refer to Joe D's post earlier in this thread for the answer about Canticle! You'll soon find out that Joe always has the answers!

Re: Guess you\'ve had the literature influences thr

Thanks for the welcome, my dear. Your nickname gave me quite a chuckle, by the by. I'm always easily amused by. . .high numerical values.

:devil:

Jacqui

As an after thought. . .you've got to listen to the actor commentaries on the DVDs at least. I nearly coughed up a lung I laughed so hard. When Peter points out the "dents" in Jerry's head during their commentary on "Falling Toward Apotheosis," well. . .OMG! I literally had a hard time breathing!