B5TV.COM. Babylon 5 forums Babylon 5 message for the fans from Claudia Christian Babylon 5

Go Back   B5TV.COM > Classic: Babylon 5, Crusade and Rangers > B5.world

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old December 26th 20, 15:19   #1
JohnGaunt3.0
Lurker
 
Join Date: Aug 2020
Location: Indiana
Posts: 13
Rewatch #3 Big theme ideas and questions

Vir and Lenier are portrayed as almost complete mirror opposites, G'Kar's attache gets dropped out due to casting issues (as i've recently learned) although T'Lon functions as a sort of stand-in. My question is What was the story arc for her intended to be? A willing convert to G'Kar's new philosophy, a rebel against it, obedient but reluctant assistant? Did the mirroring only take place because there wasn't a 3rd character to balance between V/L?

I didn't watch the show from start to finish until i fished a B5/Crusade set out of the bargain bin at a Big Box in '09 (i think) and didn't rewatch until after seeing some 20th anniversary vids on utube, so I've missed all the fandom discussions.
JohnGaunt3.0 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 27th 20, 20:26   #2
Looney
Psi Cop
 
Looney's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: Middle West U.S.
Posts: 1,029
Re: Rewatch #3 Big theme ideas and questions

I honestly can't recall at the moment. I'm sure someone has a better memory than I. Hopefully they will stop by soon and reply. The Holidays have me in a blur at the moment.
Looney is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 24th 21, 14:45   #3
JohnGaunt3.0
Lurker
 
Join Date: Aug 2020
Location: Indiana
Posts: 13
Be a good little Mimbari??

The inquisitor tells Delenn to be be a good little mimbari and obey and conform, but that's not what mimbari do. The windswords disobey the council to attack Kosh and shield Deathwalker, Delenn disobeys the council for the chrysalis and sorta by reading the Eye on Mimbar section of the paper to find out what she's not being told. The Tragati disobeys the order to surrender and has to be getting support from someone to stay functioning after 10+ years in space. Lenier tells lies of omission and commission when convenient, and actively and inactively disobeys orders. Neroon sets up his caste leader for failure and embarrassment. The list goes on and on. The Vorlon think or imagine them an obedient and orderly "client" race (Yes, I see the show with a Cold War-raised mentality) and reflective of Vorlon ideals, but that's not who they really are, is it?

Just wondering if anyone else had noticed the dichotomy.
JohnGaunt3.0 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 28th 21, 05:49   #4
Springer
Telepath
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 608
Re: Be a good little Mimbari??

In their own ways, both the Vorlons and the Shadows misjudged the younger races' ability to rebel. The Vorlons expected obedience, but instead everyone rose up together and rebelled against them. The Shadows expected everyone to start fighting one another, but instead everyone rose up together and rebelled against them.

The irony is, everyone was doing a pretty good job at fighting each other before the Shadows came along - the Centauri occupation of Narn, the Dilgar War, the Earth-Minbari War – and the different races only unified with one another, ultimately forming an Interstellar Alliance that seemingly lasted millennia, in response to the Shadows. If the Shadows had wanted everyone to fight, they should have just stayed on Z'Ha'Dum and let everyone get on with it!
Springer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 29th 21, 06:01   #5
hypatia
First One
 
hypatia's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 28,657
Re: Rewatch #3 Big theme ideas and questions

That's a good point. It may have simply been inconceivable that such alliances were even possible. And the younger races couldn't have succeeded without an ace up their sleeve, working with The First One.
__________________
"If we crave some cosmic purpose, then let us find ourselves a worthy goal."
-- Carl Sagan, Pale Blue Dot
hypatia is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 29th 21, 14:08   #6
JohnGaunt3.0
Lurker
 
Join Date: Aug 2020
Location: Indiana
Posts: 13
Re: Rewatch #3 Big theme ideas and questions

Enough power to destroy but not control, haven't heard of that problem before! LOL

I wonder about Pres Clark now, was he rebelling against the Shadows by turning the EA insular or was it some deep plot to have a reserve force to kick over the remaining anthills once the dust settled? Earth become a moot point when the Vorlons entered into direct combat, but it would explain the Shadow tech destroyers.
JohnGaunt3.0 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 29th 21, 15:16   #7
JohnGaunt3.0
Lurker
 
Join Date: Aug 2020
Location: Indiana
Posts: 13
Re: Be a good little Mimbari??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Springer View Post
The irony is, everyone was doing a pretty good job at fighting each other before the Shadows came along - the Centauri occupation of Narn, the Dilgar War, the Earth-Minbari War and the different races only unified with one another, ultimately forming an Interstellar Alliance that seemingly lasted millennia, in response to the Shadows. If the Shadows had wanted everyone to fight, they should have just stayed on Z'Ha'Dum and let everyone get on with it!
If the Vorlons hadn't eliminated Deathwalker, the Shadows almost certainly would have gotten their dream war started - For Free - courtesy of a Vorlon ally. I love this show, so many levels to watch it at and entertaining on all of them.
JohnGaunt3.0 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 29th 21, 15:33   #8
Springer
Telepath
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 608
Re: Rewatch #3 Big theme ideas and questions

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnGaunt3.0 View Post
Enough power to destroy but not control, haven't heard of that problem before! LOL

I wonder about Pres Clark now, was he rebelling against the Shadows by turning the EA insular or was it some deep plot to have a reserve force to kick over the remaining anthills once the dust settled? Earth become a moot point when the Vorlons entered into direct combat, but it would explain the Shadow tech destroyers.
Maybe by becoming insular, that would foster a general fear of others, and perhaps Earth would then lash out, making preemptive strikes against those they fear?

Humans were new on the scene too, having not been around for the previous war a thousand years ago, so maybe the Shadows were planting seeds now and anticipating that they'll be useful in the next war in another thousand years.
Springer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 7th 21, 14:44   #9
JohnGaunt3.0
Lurker
 
Join Date: Aug 2020
Location: Indiana
Posts: 13
Jumped vs Pushed

Choices, consequences and responsibility are the underpinnings of B5, but - as the interrogator says - to claim you are not influenced by others is ridiculous. Many of the main characters chose to make the big decisions - they Jump, blindly sometimes but they make a decision to act. G'Kar gets Pushed in his pivotal moment, whether by his fathers ghost, a piece of Kosh, the ghosts of christmas, or by god/the cosmos I not certain, but the Push is definitely going on and it redirects his life. Does Lyta Jump or was she Pushed? Bester nails her hard with the reality that she's WITH the Army of Light but not OF it. Only Zack reaches out to her before she falls into darkness and that's personal interest and poorly done. I see her as a victim not a villain and "good guys" as responsible for that fall through the omission of acts of friendship and compassion.

Change my mind.
JohnGaunt3.0 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 20th 21, 08:35   #10
Springer
Telepath
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 608
Re: Jumped vs Pushed

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnGaunt3.0 View Post
Choices, consequences and responsibility are the underpinnings of B5, but - as the interrogator says - to claim you are not influenced by others is ridiculous. Many of the main characters chose to make the big decisions - they Jump, blindly sometimes but they make a decision to act. G'Kar gets Pushed in his pivotal moment, whether by his fathers ghost, a piece of Kosh, the ghosts of christmas, or by god/the cosmos I not certain, but the Push is definitely going on and it redirects his life. Does Lyta Jump or was she Pushed? Bester nails her hard with the reality that she's WITH the Army of Light but not OF it. Only Zack reaches out to her before she falls into darkness and that's personal interest and poorly done. I see her as a victim not a villain and "good guys" as responsible for that fall through the omission of acts of friendship and compassion.

Change my mind.
I don't think I ever saw Lyta as becoming a villain per se (though in Wheel of Fire she started acting like one), more that her aims and goals became unaligned with those of Sheridan etc. Sheridan was friendly with her until Epiphanies, after which he (perhaps rightly) didn't trust her. I think it's not just the fact she blew up Z'Ha'Dum that prompted this, but more so that she wouldn't fully own up to it afterwards and take responsibility - it was all "hypothetical" when she was trying to explain it to him. And somebody with that much power outside his chain of command, prone to acting upon her own impulses, was probably enough to put Sheridan on edge around her.

I really wish Claudia Christian had stayed for season 5, not just because Ivanova was ace, but I think her loss affected other characters too, Ivanova might have been one to try and reach out to Lyta after Byron's death, would she have helped Lyta or tried to stop her?

In terms of what was influencing Lyta, there were so many factors - feeling estranged from the command staff, love and mourning for Byron, and the elephant in the room, what the Vorlons did to her and what subconscious commands remained. The Vorlons were wary of telepaths, destroying Psi Corps might have been in their interests, particularly if it could stop the Shadows using them.

Last edited by Springer; December 20th 21 at 09:31.
Springer is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 16:30.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
2001 - 2018 B5TV.COM