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Old May 17th 19, 17:46   #151
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Re: Game of Thrones, HBO series

I thought this was a very good article that looks at Dany's motives: http://watchersonthewall.com/daenerys-targaryen-throne/
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Old May 18th 19, 03:26   #152
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Re: Game of Thrones, HBO series

I have no problem with Dany's motives. I have always felt her reasons for wanting to rule were flawed. The signs that this was coming were always there. The fact that all of the characters guiding her toward becoming the right kind of ruler have been steadily killed off only guided this further toward happening, so it isn't outlandish to think she could do this. The problem is that we are at the end of the story and this will be her fate and it is a fate she doesn't deserve. Instead of learning from all of the lessons she's been taught for eight seasons and making the right choices no matter what effect it would have on her becoming Queen we get that she learned nothing and deep down she always had a monster in her. I would have been fine if she didn't become Queen or somehow accepted being Queen was not her only fate. And honestly, her death would have been better than this villainous turn. I mean I didn't want to see her and Jon get married and rule together because that just seemed too much like a fairy tale and quite a bit sexist. But death or anything else would have been better than making her a monster and the end of the series.

And as I said, logically she should be taking Jon and Tyrion down with her, fates they don't deserve. Best case scenario, Jon kills Dany and Drogon then, as I heard someone fortell today, returns north of The Wall or back to Eastwatch to help rebuild The Wall. I feel all threats from a Night King or Night Queen should be over, but it is a TV show that wants to do the unexpected. But back to how she has ruined them. The society who remain should want Jon and Tyrion dead as well as Dany. It doesn't matter that they were acting in good faith. They convinced thousands to follow her and she burned everyone.

And like I said, Varys was always getting better throughout the show. To show that in the end he was always just going to go where the wind blew was a horrible fate to cast on him. His motives were pure and they turned that into someone who could just never commit.

Okay I wish I had more energy, but I am OUT!
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Old May 19th 19, 14:36   #153
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Re: Game of Thrones, HBO series

All I'm gonna say is... Arya... on a pale horse. Dany go sleepy if she be bad, bad.
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Old May 19th 19, 15:02   #154
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Re: Game of Thrones, HBO series

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All I'm gonna say is... Arya... on a pale horse. Dany go sleepy if she be bad, bad.


As much as I would like to agree I feel that Jon and Arya are the obvious choices. Yes it might be one of them, but I think it could also be Tyrion. And the more talk I hear the more I am starting to think she may not get it in the end. She may be forced to live with what she has done. But who knows. I do know that after the last episode I wouldn't be surprised if Arya is done with death. Of course I could say any one of a million things because that is where they have left us. Just predict every possible outcome and one of them will likely be right.

Jon kills Daenerys
Jon kills Drogon.
Jon kills Daenerys and Drogon.
Daenerys and Drongon kills Jon.
Daenerys kills Jon.
Drogon kills Jon.
Tyrion kills Daenerys.
Daenerys kills Tyrion.
Daenerys and Drogon kill Tyrion.
Arya kills Daenerys.
Daenerys and Drogon kill Arya.
Daenerys and Drogon kill Sansa. . . . .
Nobody dies . . . . .

You get where I am going with this and I don't think I need to mention all of those characters whom may not actually be dead yet. I mean we haven't seen corpses on Jaime, Cersei, The Mountain, The Hound, and Euron. Wait I guess we have seen The Mountain as an animated corpse. We just assume they are dead due to the circumstances they were left in. Euron most definitely should be dead or dying when we see him next, but I wouldn't put it past these guys to bring him back. And I still say there is a Qyburn return possible. He made The Mountain into something that could not be killed so maybe he did the same for himself, either before he was found half dead in Valar Dohaeris, 3.1, or during his free reign in King's Landing.

I did hear one that I think sounds logical. If Jon survives he returns either north of The Wall or to repair The Wall. I guess The Wall shouldn't need repaired, but I get the feeling they aren't willing to say the White Walker threat is gone forever. One definite thing that wouldn't surprise me is a series ending with a White Walker twist or a Night Queen twist.

Quick question Demonn. Is your Avatar supposed to look like a member of the Grey Council who has been taken by a Goa'uld from Stargate?


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Old May 19th 19, 15:24   #155
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Re: Game of Thrones, HBO series

It's Neroon with glowing teep eyes from Lyta... I darkened the face.

I do think Grey Worm will go after Jon... which will be the end of Grey Worm.
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Old May 21st 19, 15:14   #156
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A beautiful, haunting ending. A truly wonderful series. My thanks to everyone involved in its production.

I think I'll try and make this my last post on GoT. Debating nitpicks about something this brilliant just doesn't seem right to me.
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Old May 21st 19, 16:14   #157
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Re: Game of Thrones, HBO series

I couldn't disagree more. I'm sorry you don't want to debate things that are FAR MORE than "nitpicks". There was nothing "brilliant" about this season. There was nothing "brilliant" about the finale for most of the story arcs.

I've come to the realization that the complete mishandling of Season 8 was done on purpose. Clearly they were contractually obligating to not use certain finales that might appear in the novels. They also had to make the conclusion disappointing so people would seek out the final books looking for a satisfactory ending.

I will say that the finale was about the best they could have done after last week, but they even screwed that up.

Far and away the worst thing they did was allow Sansa to separate The North. That completely negated the entire point of going a new direction when it came to choosing a ruler. A separate North means there will never be an end to wars in Westeros. I doubt it would be under Sansa, but after she is gone there would be a story to tell about how The North eventually tried to invade The South or the South tried to invade The North. They could have been more impressive by having Sansa given into not getting her way and keeping Westeros united under her BROTHER for crying out loud.

The second worst thing they did was allow Jason to go North broken. I expected him to go North, but out of contentment not disillusionment. Yet another completely unsatisfying ending for a critical character.

There were other things I disliked and things that didn't make much sense, but for the most part I was satisfied with the ending for several of the other characters, especially Grey Worm and The Unsullied. That was a great ending for him. One thing the last few episodes did successfully illustrate was what Grey Worm really is, a weapon. The scene where Jon was trying to reason with him was great because we really saw there wasn't really mercy in him. This is someone who's been beaten his entire life into the instrument the last few episodes showed. Having him take the Unsullied to Naath was probably the best possible outcome.

Did anyone else get a strong Babylon 5 feeling? I mean I felt structurally this season dealing with The Night King before Cersei felt like the Shadow War before the Civil War, but in this last episode I REALLY felt like seeing the new council sitting around that table was like seeing the new Ambassadors and new people carrying on after others moved on to new things on Babylon 5. Only in Game of Thrones most of those continuing on were replacing those who did not have the same kinds of endings as those on Babylon 5.

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Old May 21st 19, 17:33   #158
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Re: Game of Thrones, HBO series

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I couldn't disagree more. I'm sorry you don't want to debate things that are FAR MORE than "nitpicks". There was nothing "brilliant" about this season. There was nothing "brilliant" about the finale for most of the story arcs.

I've come to the realization that the complete mishandling of Season 8 was done on purpose. Clearly they were contractually obligating to not use certain finales that might appear in the novels. They also had to make the conclusion disappointing so people would seek out the final books looking for a satisfactory ending.

I will say that the finale was about the best they could have done after last week, but they even screwed that up.

Far and away the worst thing they did was allow Sansa to separate The North. That completely negated the entire point of going a new direction when it came to choosing a ruler. A separate North means there will never be an end to wars in Westeros. I doubt it would be under Sansa, but after she is gone there would be a story to tell about how The North eventually tried to invade The South or the South tried to invade The North. They could have been more impressive by having Sansa given into not getting her way and keeping Westeros united under her BROTHER for crying out loud.

The second worst thing they did was allow Jason to go North broken. I expected him to go North, but out of contentment not disillusionment. Yet another completely unsatisfying ending for a critical character.

There were other things I disliked and things that didn't make much sense, but for the most part I was satisfied with the ending for several of the other characters, especially Grey Worm and The Unsullied. That was a great ending for him. One thing the last few episodes did successfully illustrate was what Grey Worm really is, a weapon. The scene where Jon was trying to reason with him was great because we really saw there wasn't really mercy in him. This is someone who's been beaten his entire life into the instrument the last few episodes showed. Having him take the Unsullied to Naath was probably the best possible outcome.

Did anyone else get a strong Babylon 5 feeling? I mean I felt structurally this season dealing with The Night King before Cersei felt like the Shadow War before the Civil War, but in this last episode I REALLY felt like seeing the new council sitting around that table was like seeing the new Ambassadors and new people carrying on after others moved on to new things on Babylon 5. Only in Game of Thrones most of those continuing on were replacing those who did not have the same kinds of endings as those on Babylon 5.
This really will be my last post on GoT (I promise!) as I don't want to argue, but the ending to the show, and people's reaction to it, have made me reconsider my attitude towards other stories, so I just want to go off on a tangent for a moment and talk about that as I think that's something that's important, to me at least. In particularity it has made me rethink my reaction to The Last Jedi, which I really didn't like, partly because I didn't think the story was very good, but mostly because of what the story did to Luke Skywalker. And I've come to realise, as I think about the furore over the ending to GoT, that I didn't like The Last Jedi because it didn't meet my personal expectations for what a story about Luke should be about, but the thing is Rian Johnson was under no obligation to tell a story to meet my expectations. He told the story that he wanted to tell, and maybe I need to watch it again but this time on its own merits rather than holding it up to the things I wanted it to be.

Very similar was my initial reaction to the battle with the Army of the Dead. I was subdued for a few days about it because I'd been expecting a Jon-Night King fight and it never happened, and I think I came on here and expressed my unhappiness with it. But after watching it more objectively a second time, I was happy with it - the writers were under no obligation to give me my Jon Snow-Night King fight. What they were obligated to do was to tell the story they wanted to tell, and they did that, and accepting that allowed me to see the full merits of the story they wanted to tell.

That's why the reaction from some fans about season 8 has disheartened me, because they are holding it to the standard of what they wanted to happen, or what they thought should happen in their opinion. Just look at all the discussion in here where we've said, it would have been better if they'd done this or that. The petition to have season 8 remade is as ridiculous as the petition to have The Last Jedi re-made. And that's the thing about your post above - all of that is *in your opinion* only. It's your personal view, and as your personal view it is completely valid for yourself, but (and please forgive me if I've misconstrued it) the way you've presented it is as absolute truth, which it isn't. Similarly, me thinking it is brilliant is only my personal view, it touched something in me but that's not to say it has to create the same feelings in other people; but given the effect it did have on me - and I'm talking about the effect both the ending and the series as a whole had on me - I personally do not want to argue over plot points as it will just drain my energy and my enthusiasm for something I love. And we know what Kosh says about truth anyway.

So yeah, I just wanted to write this one more post on the subject to say that Game of Thrones has made me reevaluate how I approach other stories, and hopefully it is going to make me a bit more open-minded in future. I appreciate the fact that it has forced me to do some thinking and evaluation. And the series, and particularly the ending, has had an effect on me almost as large as the effect B5 had on me (I was a teen when watching B5, so it had a big effect on me as I was still developing my world view, now I think Game of Thrones came along for me at the right time as an adult). If nothing else, it reminds me that in life stories can sometimes end in tragedy as they did for Jon and Dany, and that sometimes doing the right thing can hurt you personally more than doing the wrong thing, but because it's the right thing to do, you have to do it. Hmm, that sounds like it could be a message from B5 (although the ending reminded me more of the ending to The West Wing actually, in terms of a new government being formed involving some of our characters while other characters go on their way).

I will say though that the bit about deliberately 'mishandling' the ending so it will be different to the books - factually rubbish. Here's George RR Martin on the subject - he says any differences will be because there are more characters in his books, and what he calls the Butterfly effect, so it can't end up exactly the same, and that anyway, in his opinion story in the books and the series are both equally valid: http://georgerrmartin.com/notablog/2.../20/an-ending/

Anyway, I'm logging out now. Will be happy to talk B5 at a later time. (And I wonder, if this thread had been about watching B5 for the first time and reacting to it in real time, would the discussion be as harsh about its failings as the discussion is about GoT?)
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Old May 23rd 19, 14:45   #159
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Re: Game of Thrones, HBO series

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Originally Posted by Springer View Post
This really will be my last post on GoT (I promise!) as I don't want to argue, but the ending to the show, and people's reaction to it, have made me reconsider my attitude towards other stories, so I just want to go off on a tangent for a moment and talk about that as I think that's something that's important, to me at least. In particularity it has made me rethink my reaction to The Last Jedi, which I really didn't like, partly because I didn't think the story was very good, but mostly because of what the story did to Luke Skywalker. And I've come to realise, as I think about the furore over the ending to GoT, that I didn't like The Last Jedi because it didn't meet my personal expectations for what a story about Luke should be about, but the thing is Rian Johnson was under no obligation to tell a story to meet my expectations. He told the story that he wanted to tell, and maybe I need to watch it again but this time on its own merits rather than holding it up to the things I wanted it to be.

Very similar was my initial reaction to the battle with the Army of the Dead. I was subdued for a few days about it because I'd been expecting a Jon-Night King fight and it never happened, and I think I came on here and expressed my unhappiness with it. But after watching it more objectively a second time, I was happy with it - the writers were under no obligation to give me my Jon Snow-Night King fight. What they were obligated to do was to tell the story they wanted to tell, and they did that, and accepting that allowed me to see the full merits of the story they wanted to tell.

That's why the reaction from some fans about season 8 has disheartened me, because they are holding it to the standard of what they wanted to happen, or what they thought should happen in their opinion. Just look at all the discussion in here where we've said, it would have been better if they'd done this or that. The petition to have season 8 remade is as ridiculous as the petition to have The Last Jedi re-made. And that's the thing about your post above - all of that is *in your opinion* only. It's your personal view, and as your personal view it is completely valid for yourself, but (and please forgive me if I've misconstrued it) the way you've presented it is as absolute truth, which it isn't. Similarly, me thinking it is brilliant is only my personal view, it touched something in me but that's not to say it has to create the same feelings in other people; but given the effect it did have on me - and I'm talking about the effect both the ending and the series as a whole had on me - I personally do not want to argue over plot points as it will just drain my energy and my enthusiasm for something I love. And we know what Kosh says about truth anyway.

So yeah, I just wanted to write this one more post on the subject to say that Game of Thrones has made me reevaluate how I approach other stories, and hopefully it is going to make me a bit more open-minded in future. I appreciate the fact that it has forced me to do some thinking and evaluation. And the series, and particularly the ending, has had an effect on me almost as large as the effect B5 had on me (I was a teen when watching B5, so it had a big effect on me as I was still developing my world view, now I think Game of Thrones came along for me at the right time as an adult). If nothing else, it reminds me that in life stories can sometimes end in tragedy as they did for Jon and Dany, and that sometimes doing the right thing can hurt you personally more than doing the wrong thing, but because it's the right thing to do, you have to do it. Hmm, that sounds like it could be a message from B5 (although the ending reminded me more of the ending to The West Wing actually, in terms of a new government being formed involving some of our characters while other characters go on their way).

I will say though that the bit about deliberately 'mishandling' the ending so it will be different to the books - factually rubbish. Here's George RR Martin on the subject - he says any differences will be because there are more characters in his books, and what he calls the Butterfly effect, so it can't end up exactly the same, and that anyway, in his opinion story in the books and the series are both equally valid: http://georgerrmartin.com/notablog/2.../20/an-ending/

Anyway, I'm logging out now. Will be happy to talk B5 at a later time. (And I wonder, if this thread had been about watching B5 for the first time and reacting to it in real time, would the discussion be as harsh about its failings as the discussion is about GoT?)

Yeah sorry, you only get one "LAST POST". I can't read the above because you already gave your final say.






You make valid points, but personal opinions and expectations aside there is a fundamental issue with storytelling here.

Side Bar for a moment: Did you post why you didn't like what happened to Luke? I mean I wish it had been handled differently, but when you know going into a story that a thing is likely going to happen then you hope they do it well. I didn't like it, but I thought it was maybe one of the best ways they could have done it. Other than that I didn't really like the other arcs that much. I really dislike Finn and I hated what they did to Chewbacca. Should we start a LAST JEDI THREAD? I didn't see one.

Okay so back to GOT and storytelling. I instead of "mishandling" and "done on purpose" I should have said they made mistakes possibly caused by limitations put on them because of the upcoming books. I just like the conspiracy theory angle so I took the mishandling angle, but the reality is they may have been told, "You can't do this, this, or this." no matter what anyone says to the general public. Of course they are all going to tell the media that they had all the creative control they wanted, but I highly doubt that was the case given they want to sell books in the future.

And back to opinions and expectations. I can honestly say I had no preconceived expectations going into the last few episodes other than what I didn't want to happen. I didn't want Jon to be King or Dany to be Queen (Until we knew she had really learned that it took more than birthright to earn the position.) Mostly I wanted people to have good endings. I honestly would have been fine if Jon or Dany had met a tragic death, but what was done to them was worse. Going into Season 8 I knew Dany was not ready to be the Queen that was needed, but yes I expected she would learn what she really needed to be. Was it you, Springer, who said she would end up needing to surrender herself for the good of the people? But no out of the hundreds of directions they could have chosen to go, including giving Jon and/or Dany tragic deaths, they chose to turn her into a monster and break him.

I think what is really at issue is the motives behind this finale. Is this the story they wanted to tell or did they just want to shock and surprise people? That is the problem. It has come to light that Dany burning King's Landing was a "last minute" decision. That says they were making things up on the fly and just trying to surprise and shock people rather than having some grand purposeful storytelling.

And as far as expectations go, this show ended up doing this far too often. So many good characters ended up with fates they didn't deserve. Some might say this means they were only staying true to form, but what does that accomplish in terms of telling a story? Who wants to know a story where the same things just keep happening? I mean even the "happy endings" side of this isn't that happy when you realize that Sansa separating means wars in Westeros will continue. This was the end of the story so we weren't supposed to get more of the same, but there has to be prequels and sequels.

Here is a good test, can you honestly say that this finale makes 8 Seasons of Game of Thrones a story worth watching again? Knowing how it ends what would be the point of sitting through it again? Great stories like Babylon 5 can be watched over and over again. What would be the purpose in sitting through Game of Thrones again? I mean I saw all the signs of Dany's madness the first time around; I just hoped the journey we were on was one of her discovery. But no, it was just all for nothing like so many character arcs in this show. Like I said, even death would have been better.

Final Side Bar: It is driving me crazy trying to remember what gave me the same epiphany you had about letting your own expectations cloud the experience. It was a long time ago. I keep thinking LEXX, but that show was too goofy to take seriously. If I remember I'll come back and post. It is the main reason I rarely go into any movie or TV show with expectations, but after 8 Seasons of GOT I expected a better ending. I expected some tragedy and would honestly have been fine with Daenerys not becoming Queen, but turning her into a monster and breaking Jon was just too much.

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Old May 23rd 19, 20:07   #160
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Re: Game of Thrones, HBO series

So about that last post on the subject thing... I think I was just getting irritated about all the criticism on the web about the show when I wrote that and was sulking a bit, but I'll try and stick to it (mostly!), but I think we're getting onto some interesting topics here about storytelling, which I think is fun to think about, so I'll keep posting :-)

Quote:
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Did you post why you didn't like what happened to Luke? I mean I wish it had been handled differently, but when you know going into a story that a thing is likely going to happen then you hope they do it well. I didn't like it, but I thought it was maybe one of the best ways they could have done it. Other than that I didn't really like the other arcs that much. I really dislike Finn and I hated what they did to Chewbacca. Should we start a LAST JEDI THREAD? I didn't see one.
No, I didn't post here about The Last Jedi. I think I kept my own council about that. Maybe I could start a thread after I get chance to re-watch it and see if my thoughts had changed. But briefly, my main stumbling block was I thought Luke was acting out of character, but he is a childhood hero, so I was in denial about him being killed off so meekly. I think I need to overcome that attachment a little bit to give TLJ a fair airing.

But even when I was watching it the first time, I thought about how the heroes in the old Greek myths, and how they invariably had tragic endings. I mean, just look up what happened to Jason after his adventures with the Argonauts - he died lonely and miserable, sleeping rough underneath the rotting hulk of the Argo when the stern fell off and flattened him! Plus I think there's something about the story of a real hero who does the right thing but at great personal cost. I mean, did Jack Bauer ever get a happy ending? So I think both Luke Skywalker's, and certainly Jon Snow's endings, fall into this kind of tragic hero trope. I do think such endings are certainly a matter of taste and not everyone likes them. I don't think that is the fault of the writing or story craft, it's just personal taste.

And you know, like Ser Arthur Dayne was the fabled 'Sword of the Morning', I think Jon is now the personification of 'The Shield that Guards the Realms of Men'. Tyrion even called him that. Maybe if Westeros ever faces mortal danger once more, Jon Snow will return. I mean, they could build a whole legend around him, sing songs about his feats and his bravery - exactly like how Luke was turned into a legend at the end of TLJ. So I'm cool with Jon's fate, and maybe I should revisit what happened to Luke too (though of course there's still one more film to go, so maybe Luke's story isn't completely over yet)

Quote:
Okay so back to GOT and storytelling. I instead of "mishandling" and "done on purpose" I should have said they made mistakes possibly caused by limitations put on them because of the upcoming books. I just like the conspiracy theory angle so I took the mishandling angle, but the reality is they may have been told, "You can't do this, this, or this." no matter what anyone says to the general public. Of course they are all going to tell the media that they had all the creative control they wanted, but I highly doubt that was the case given they want to sell books in the future.
I certainly can't argue that limitations caused by running out of source material affected how it was written. Whether that was a good thing or a bad thing I guess depends on your perspective, but they certainly would have had no choice but to adjust as best they could. I think it certainly caused them to streamline things. If and when the books are finally completed, it will be fascinating to compare the show and the books in a writing class and study how they both told the same story differently.

Quote:
I think what is really at issue is the motives behind this finale. Is this the story they wanted to tell or did they just want to shock and surprise people? That is the problem. It has come to light that Dany burning King's Landing was a "last minute" decision. That says they were making things up on the fly and just trying to surprise and shock people rather than having some grand purposeful storytelling.
I think around the time of season 3 or 4, when they realised that Martin wasn't going to publish Winds of Winter in time and that the show was going to outpace the books, Benioff and Weiss went to stay with Martin for a few days to discuss basically where the story in the books was going, and what the ending was going to be. D&D said Martin told them three plot points that shocked them. One was Shireen being burned. Another was Hodor/Hold the door, and the third one, they said, was at the end of the story, which can only be Daenerys destroying Kings Landing and Jon being forced to kill her. So I don't think they made that up - that's from George's outline. Also in the books, Daenerys is given three prophecies about people who will betray her. One is Jorah, another I can't remember of the top of my head, but the third was a betrayal 'for love' which fits in with Jon, who she loved, killing her.

Where Martin says the books and the show will differ is in the details. There's a lot of extra characters in the books that are having significant influence on the storyline, so naturally things won't play out exactly the same because those extra characters will have a say. I reckon a good analogy is 2001: A Space Odyssey – the movie and the novel were produced synchronously, and they tell the same story, but differently (I much prefer the book).

Quote:
And as far as expectations go, this show ended up doing this far too often. So many good characters ended up with fates they didn't deserve. Some might say this means they were only staying true to form, but what does that accomplish in terms of telling a story? Who wants to know a story where the same things just keep happening? I mean even the "happy endings" side of this isn't that happy when you realize that Sansa separating means wars in Westeros will continue. This was the end of the story so we weren't supposed to get more of the same, but there has to be prequels and sequels.
But isn't that also how Babylon 5 ended? Even after the formation of the Alliance, the same shit continued to happen as we saw in Deconstruction of Falling Stars. Besides, I had the impression that the political situation at the end of the show implied there would be peace - at least for the foreseeable future.

Quote:
Here is a good test, can you honestly say that this finale makes 8 Seasons of Game of Thrones a story worth watching again? Knowing how it ends what would be the point of sitting through it again? Great stories like Babylon 5 can be watched over and over again. What would be the purpose in sitting through Game of Thrones again? I mean I saw all the signs of Dany's madness the first time around; I just hoped the journey we were on was one of her discovery. But no, it was just all for nothing like so many character arcs in this show. Like I said, even death would have been better.
I'm already eyeing up the 4K boxset if they release one (and will buy a 4K player to watch it on!), I've got all the earlier seasons on DVD/Blu-ray, so yes, I'll definitely rewatch it, over and over, and knowing the ending I think will enrich the experience. Let's face it, we'll be watching Daenerys from a different perspective from now on!

Quote:
Final Side Bar: It is driving me crazy trying to remember what gave me the same epiphany you had about letting your own expectations cloud the experience. It was a long time ago. I keep thinking LEXX, but that show was too goofy to take seriously. If I remember I'll come back and post. It is the main reason I rarely go into any movie or TV show with expectations, but after 8 Seasons of GOT I expected a better ending. I expected some tragedy and would honestly have been fine with Daenerys not becoming Queen, but turning her into a monster and breaking Jon was just too much.
I only saw a few episodes of LEXX, it was definitely strange!

I asked the question earlier, if it had been B5 instead of GoT, how would we be reacting? I certainly remember the bitching after Z'Ha'Dum had aired. All the complaining: where did the Minbari ships that were guarding the station go? Why didn't Draal blow the Shadow ships out of the sky? Why did the Shadows not check Sheridan for weapons? How'd he get to that parapet? Why didn't the Shadows just shoot the White Star down? Lazy writing JMS!

Last edited by Springer; May 23rd 19 at 20:37.
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