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Grey Council???

Crusader

Member
Ok i was just watching all alone in the night and it got me thinking. We've seen the Grey Council with a leader. My question is to whether this leader is one of the 9 or is it a tenth member, for whom the remaining 9 act like a cabinet???
 
From what I remember from 'In The Beginning', the B5 'Price of Peace' comics that deal with Sinclair going to Minbar and a new leader being selected, and the novel 'To Dream in the City of Sorrows' which follows on from it with the tale of Sinclair up until he becomes Valen, the Leader is separate from the nine of the Grey Council, yes. The Leader is like the head of state, the Grey Council the cabinet, and the Caste Elders act as like a lower second house. The book gives a good sense of the balance of power between those three entities.
 
Ok i was just watching all alone in the night and it got me thinking. We've seen the Grey Council with a leader. My question is to whether this leader is one of the 9 or is it a tenth member, for whom the remaining 9 act like a cabinet???

According to this post by JMS it's the one and the nine.

From: J. Michael Straczynski <71016.1644@compuserve.com>
Subject: The One and the Nine
To: CIS
Date: 3/1/1997 6:44:00 PM << Newer : List : Older >>

Brent Barrett <75063.3305@compuserve.com> asks:
> Does this mean that Dukhat (and any leader of the Minbari people)
> is also on the Grey Council? Was Valen the first leader of the
> Minbari people in the history of the Grey Council? Or is it
> possible that this vacancy in the Nine was the one that Delenn
> later filled? Or am I reading this in the wrong way?
> Can you help me understand this a little better, please?

There's the One, and the Nine...when Dukhat was alive, there
were 9 grey council members and him as the head of it, making ten.
(Look at the picture and count the number of people.) 1 and 9.

Valen called together the Grey Council, formed the first one;
until then the castes had been in constant competition. He wanted to
operate outside of that a bit, so he made sure he was not one of the
Nine. That tradition has continued.

jms

It was clear that Dukhat could override the nine but that he used that veto power cautiously.

Jan
 
Also worth noting, when Delenn reforms the Grey Council in "Moments of Transition" with two of the religious caste, two of the warrior caste, and five of the worker caste, she says that the center (tenth) position would be left vacant in memory of Neroon until it is filled by "the one who is to come".
 
Right ok, i guess i was confused because i remember Delenn once saying that Valen ensured that their world was governed by this delicate balance between the three castes. And then having a tenth member who is the leader gives one caste all the power does it not???
 
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And then having a tenth member who is the leader gives one caste all the power does it not???

In theory, perhaps. But recall that it took the nine (well, 8 of the 9) to vote for Delenn to be the leader of the Grey Council so presumably they could also vote the leader out. The other thing to keep in mind is that Valen was replacing the Starfire Wheel ordeal with the Council. Until then, the leader was the leader without necessarily having to take council from any other caste. With the nine, s/he has to at least listen to all three sides.

Jan
 
In theory, perhaps. But recall that it took the nine (well, 8 of the 9) to vote for Delenn to be the leader of the Grey Council so presumably they could also vote the leader out. The other thing to keep in mind is that Valen was replacing the Starfire Wheel ordeal with the Council. Until then, the leader was the leader without necessarily having to take council from any other caste. With the nine, s/he has to at least listen to all three sides.

Jan

I dont think they could vote out the leader, i cant imagine it happening ot valen for example. The leadership position sounds like that of POTUS without any checks and balances or congressional oversight lol
 
"The One" has always bugged me somehow. If Valen is the one who was, Delenn the one who is, and Sheridan the one who will be, then who is Dukhat? And what sense does Zathras' speech about threes have in this context, if there are more "ones" than three? Clearup please...
 
"The One" has always bugged me somehow. If Valen is the one who was, Delenn the one who is, and Sheridan the one who will be, then who is Dukhat? And what sense does Zathras' speech about threes have in this context, if there are more "ones" than three? Clearup please...

That's confusing the leader of the Grey Council with the leader of the Anla'shok, though. We don't know if there's a specific title for the leader of the Council but we know that Isil'zha is a very special post indeed. Not all of the heads of the Anla'shok are bestowed the title of Isil'zha, either. I'm pretty sure that this was explained in some detail in 'To Dream in the City of Sorrows' but Mac would probably know better than I would about that.

Jan
 
That's confusing the leader of the Grey Council with the leader of the Anla'shok, though. We don't know if there's a specific title for the leader of the Council but we know that Isil'zha is a very special post indeed. Not all of the heads of the Anla'shok are bestowed the title of Isil'zha, either. I'm pretty sure that this was explained in some detail in 'To Dream in the City of Sorrows' but Mac would probably know better than I would about that.

Jan
Isnt the title Entil'Zha, see the article on the rangers on wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anla'Shok
 
Yes, of course it is!! :eek: I brain-farted because 'ISIL ZHA' is my license plate. Isil'zha means 'The Future' and that's the message that Sheridan was given when he was captured in 'In the Beginning'.

Jan
 
Yes, of course it is!! :eek: I brain-farted because 'ISIL ZHA' is my license plate. Isil'zha means 'The Future' and that's the message that Sheridan was given when he was captured in 'In the Beginning'.

Jan

haha yes. Just so long as you know whats in Dukhats special place
 
Wow. I'm in awe. :cool:

[bows to Queen Jan]

LOL. That and the license plate frame that reads "My other car is a starfury" were my solution to ending up with the most generic looking little silver car a while back. The first week I owned it I couldn't find it in a parking lot so I needed to add some personal touches.

Jan
 
Wow this has kinda become a ranger thread now. So after Sinclair have all leaders take the title of Enthil'Za or do some still take on the title of Anla Shok Na???
 
Wow this has kinda become a ranger thread now. So after Sinclair have all leaders take the title of Enthil'Za or do some still take on the title of Anla Shok Na???

I thought it was reversed: all leaders of the Rangers take the title of Ranger One, aka Anla'shok Na. Only three people in the history of the Rangers have had the title of Entil'zha: Sinclair/Valen, Delenn, and Sheridan.
 
I thought it was reversed: all leaders of the Rangers take the title of Ranger One, aka Anla'shok Na. Only three people in the history of the Rangers have had the title of Entil'zha: Sinclair/Valen, Delenn, and Sheridan.

Whom are all the known leaders of the rangers after sinclair. Plus in Sleeping In Light it was never stated whether or not Ivanova would take on the title of Entil'Zha or Anla'Shok Na/Ranger One
 
Whom are all the known leaders of the rangers after sinclair. Plus in Sleeping In Light it was never stated whether or not Ivanova would take on the title of Entil'Zha or Anla'Shok Na/Ranger One

Ivanova would've been just Anla'shok Na/Ranger One, and not Entil'zha. As per the explanation we're given of "The One" by Zathras, there are only three: Sinclair, Delenn, and Sheridan.

Of course, now that I've been trying to look up anything I can find that jms has said on the subject, I come across this, in which he says, "The Minbari term for Ranger One, btw, is Entil'zha." But I swear I've read him having said somewhere that Entil'zha was a title reserved for the three of "The One".
 
Whom are all the known leaders of the rangers after sinclair. Plus in Sleeping In Light it was never stated whether or not Ivanova would take on the title of Entil'Zha or Anla'Shok Na/Ranger One

I'm trying to remember the name of the Anla'Shok Na (but not Entil'Zha) from In The Beginning, but anyway there's an example of a leader of the rangers who wasn't Entil'Zha.
 
I'm trying to remember the name of the Anla'Shok Na (but not Entil'Zha) from In The Beginning, but anyway there's an example of a leader of the rangers who wasn't Entil'Zha.

That was Lennon, but the question arose because the wikipedia article on this says that every subsequent leader of the Anla'Shok took both titles of Entil'Zha and Anla'Shok Na and i dont remember any reference to this in the series, so where does this info come from????
 

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