Episode Judging: The Wrong Side of Popular Opinion

Ninja_Squirrel · Nov 29, 2004

There seems to be an interesting dichotomy of opinion in the EpDis: Believers thread about whether that's a horrid episode or actually not that bad. When someone trashed Intersections in Real Time

, most people thought the poster was crazy, but I agree completely.

So, I'm curious...

In what other episodes do you disagree with popular opinion?

Is there anyone that believes Infection is a good episode? Is there anyone who believes Severed Dreams or Sleeping In Light is just okay? Is one of your five most favorite episodes one that most people think is mediocre?

Is there anyone who wonders why Survivors and Eyes don't get more attention? Can anyone actually remember, without looking at an episode guide, what The War Prayer is all about? Does anyone else (other than me) like The Quality Mercy (B+) just *slightly* better than Babylon Squared (B)

?

Do you believe Ivanova's "sex" scene in Acts of Sacrifice is laugh-out-loud hilarious

or too painful to watch

(I'm in the latter category)?

And, this is a doozy (and I don't qualify for this, by the way), but is anyone brave enough to admit that they liked season five *because* of Byron, not *despite* of him?

These are just examples of directions you can take. We all are have our own opinions, so be respectful...

KoshN · Nov 29, 2004

There seems to be an interesting dichotomy of opinion in the EpDis: Believers thread about whether that's a horrid episode or actually not that bad. When someone trashed Intersections in Real Time , most people thought the poster was crazy, but I agree completely.

I never much cared for Intersections in Real Time. Part of it is that I hate to see Sheridan in that situation.

So, I'm curious...

In what other episodes do you disagree with popular opinion?

Is there anyone that believes Infection is a good episode?

I don't find Infection is as bad as most people say. I'd give it a B-.

Is there anyone who believes Severed Dreams or Sleeping In Light is just okay?

Not me. I'm with popular opinion there.

Is one of your five most favorite episodes one that most people think is mediocre?

Can't think of any that fit that description.

Is there anyone who wonders why Survivors and Eyes don't get more attention?

Well, yes, 'cause I liked 'em both, Survivors for the Garibaldi/Londo scenes, and Eyes for the "fire" in the episode, and for when Harriman Gray disables the Col.

Can anyone actually remember, without looking at an episode guide, what The War Prayer is all about?

Without looking: About the Minbari poet (Delen's friend) and the anti-Alien/pro-Earth group that attacks her, and the young Centauri couple that wants to marry for love. Has the Londo: My shoes are too tight, but it doesn't matter for I have forgotten how to dance." line.

Does anyone else (other than me) like The Quality Mercy (B+) just *slightly* better than Babylon Squared (B) ?

I like 'em equally.

Do you believe Ivanova's "sex" scene in Acts of Sacrifice is laugh-out-loud hilarious or too painful to watch (I'm in the latter category)?

While I like her misleading the Lumati, I find the scene too painful to watch except for the Paul Williams/Ivanova exchange at the end. That knowing look and chuckle from Paul Williams is precious.

And, this is a doozy (and I don't qualify for this, by the way), but is anyone brave enough to admit that they liked season five *because* of Byron, not *despite* of him?

NO!!!!!!!

I like Season 5 for the Centauri arc, Day of the Dead, Objects in Motion, Objects at Rest, and Sleeping in Light (the best finale I have ever seen).

PillowRock · Nov 29, 2004

Well, I think that Sleeping in Light would be just OK as a stand-alone for a person who had not seen the rest of the series before-hand. It it was the first ep that you saw, so that you didn't know any of the background, I think that it would come off as being a bit slow and kinda mediocre. Of course, IIRC even JMS said at the time something to the effect of "that this one is for the 'family'; don't bring in newbies for the finale". Most of the other "great episodes" I think would also work pretty well on their own. That one, I don't think would.

And I think that Byron got a bit of bum rap. I think that a signifcant part of the dislike people had for him was because his whole story arc felt disconnected from all of the other interwoven arcs and was a bit rushed. That, in turn, I think was entirely because JMS thought there wouldn't be a S5 and pushed Byron's introduction out of S4. If his introduction had been handled more gradually (think Brother Theo) over the course of the second half of S4, possibly including he and his followers actually helping out a bit once or twice, then I don't think that he would have inspired the level animosity that we have seen ever since S5 first aired.

Mike G · Nov 29, 2004

I kinda liked "Eyes".

Actually, I kinda liked them all.

Whatever.

KoshFan · Nov 29, 2004

Me, I've got a sneaky fondness for "Gray 17 is Missing." The Delenn/Neroon/Marcus plot is just too good, and I find Jeremiah more amusing than annoying. Sure, the Zarg and the method of the Zarg's death are ridiculous, but I just have to say that two of Marcus's best lines come in this episode:

"I am a Ranger. We walk in the dark places no others will enter. We stand on the bridge and none may pass.... we live for the One; we die for the One."

(Over the top? Sure. Still lovely and satisfying? Heck yeah.)

"The next time... you want to have a revelation... could you possibly... find a way... that isn't so uncomfortable?"

vacantlook · Nov 29, 2004

I like Byron, I just dislike many of his followers.

RW7427 · Nov 29, 2004

When someone trashed Intersections in Real Time , most people thought the poster was crazy,

That would be me, and yes, I am crazy.

iamsheridan · Nov 30, 2004

[snip] ...
Do you believe Ivanova's "sex" scene in Acts of Sacrifice is laugh-out-loud hilarious or too painful to watch (I'm in the latter category)?

And, this is a doozy (and I don't qualify for this, by the way), but is anyone brave enough to admit that they liked season five *because* of Byron, not *despite* of him?

These are just examples of directions you can take. We all are have our own opinions, so be respectful...

I hated Infection when I first saw it. I thought it felt (?) like a bad ST episode. Now, years later, I found that it had it's merits. Just don't ask me what 'cause I don't remember. Backstory?

I feel the same about Comes the Inquisitor as some others about Intersections in Real Time: I don't want to see Delenn being treated like that.

I was so disappointed with Sleeping in Light because we didn't get any answers to the outstanding questions. We had been promised that B5 would be a five year saga - and now all those threads were left unresolved! (Like Sheridan's son, who built the Great Machine, what happened to Valen etc.)

Loved Severed Dreams.

Hated Survivors. Don't remember Eyes.

Can't decide on Ivanova's sex scene. A bit of both, I think.

Never liked season five, not because of Byron, but because the whole season was BORING!

And we didn't get all questions answered. Instead of introducing new threads that didn't get resolved, JMS should have focused on answering all questions! IMHO.

Jade Jaguar · Nov 30, 2004

Re: Episode Judging: The Wrong Side of Popular Opi

I like TKO.

I like the Byron arc, think he was horribly mistreated by Sheridan and Lochley, and that their siding with Psycorps was unconscionable.

War Prayer was the first ep that convinced me that B5 was a cut above, and worth continuing to watch.

Severed Dreams is one of the very best eps. Sleeping In Light is good only for fans.

Intersections In Real Time is good -- the first time or two, but doesn't keep revealing small things on repeated viewings, like many eps do, and wears kind of thin.

Babylon Squared is an A, Quality of Mercy, is a B, for B5, anyway.

Ivanova's "sex scene" is embarrassing and painful to watch, but works within the context of the ep.

I like Soul Hunter.

Paragon of Animals is an excellent ep.

The Illusion of Truth is my least liked ep.

Sigma · Nov 30, 2004

I liked All Alone in the Night a lot. Robert Foxworth is great actor.

Exercise of Vital Powers is another great epsisode, i just like little film noir elements. This episode summs it up why S4 is by far my favorite season.

Intersections of Real Times i think is my favorite S4 episode and that tells a lot.

And All My Dreams, Torn Asunder is great episode, loved the direction and acting. But i didn't liked Movements of Shadow and Fire and The Fall of Centauri Prime that came after that.

And finaly Sleeping in Light is very good episode and probably most emotional of the whole series.

HeinleinFan · Nov 30, 2004

I would venture to say that most of the episodes contain something that adds to the overall story arc in some way, either in the dialogue or the visuals, the A plot or the B plot.

JJ says he liked TKO. I do, as well. While a lot of fans think it’s not a great episode, there was a big ol’ shot of foreshadowing in Smith’s parting words to Garibaldi. I enjoy Believers for another reason: watch Ivanova’s lips when she looks up to see the squadron of Raiders coming after her. What she says on the dialogue track is not the same thing she mouths in the scene. Eyes was a great episode for me, too. I liked the background information we got and that Bester was pulling Sinclair’s chain. So, every episode has something to “hook” a potential viewer. You never know what small snippet of conversation will be vital several episodes down the line.

I agree that SiL is not a “starter episode.” But those who complain about unanswered questions can find some of the answers in the various novels. B5 is a franchise like Star Trek, and the episodes, movie(s), books, and comics all contribute to the finished product, provided they’re canon.

And I agree with KoshN. The Centauri arc was the savior of Season 5. Byron pretty much single-handedly ruined the rest of the season for me.

RMcD · Nov 30, 2004

I completely disagree with popular opinion on most of the best / worst episodes. The first time I saw Infection I honestly thought it was great: an action-packed episode, good pacing, and the last time in Season 1 that Sinclair gets to play the hero and wear the flak suit (plus I tend to cut the S1 episodes some slack anyway). I like Grail because David Warner's acting is always so arresting. Gray 17 is a great Marcus / Neroon episode. I kind of like Byron because he's an interesting character, not a bad actor, and has some thought-provoking lines about willows and things (please don't shoot me!).

On the other hand, I loathe The War Prayer, Survivors, Legacies, Spider in the Web, and much of S5. My most hated episode of all is that horrible one in S5 whose name escapes me, with Sech Turval, which proves once and for all that Rangers are vicious, violent vigilante thugs.

Ninja_Squirrel · Nov 30, 2004

And I think that Byron got a bit of bum rap. I think that a signifcant part of the dislike people had for him was because his whole story arc felt disconnected from all of the other interwoven arcs and was a bit rushed. That, in turn, I think was entirely because JMS thought there wouldn't be a S5 and pushed Byron's introduction out of S4. If his introduction had been handled more gradually (think Brother Theo) over the course of the second half of S4, possibly including he and his followers actually helping out a bit once or twice, then I don't think that he would have inspired the level animosity that we have seen ever since S5 first aired.

Hmm, I hadn't thought of it that way. You may be right. By sprinkling Byron in a little bit at a time, he could have had time to be more likeable. Instead, he and his followers seemed to pervade every empire-building plot in the first half of season five. He's just always there, and the ramped-up conflict makes him arrogant. There's no time to learn about him and sympathize with him before he's already making demands and ultimatums of the alliance.

I feel the same about Comes the Inquisitor as some others about Intersections in Real Time: I don't want to see Delenn being treated like that.

I had to warm up to Inquisitor. I probably saw it for the first time before I really had a feel for the overall arc. Once I backtracked, I had a better understanding of how it fit, and what its purpose was in determining future characterization. I didn't like it at first, but I find it a respectable episode now.

I like TKO.

Me too. Some of the Mutai plot is a little illogical and forced, but still entertaining. The saving grace of the episode is the Ivanova characterization, which I think often gets overlooked. I love character development, and Ivanova dealing with her father's death and experiencing sorrow with her friends is a big bucket-full of character development.

I also like Grail. The Feeder subplot is a little silly, but there's something intriquing about the idea of a "true seeker" and of Jinxo thinking he's cursed. I like that storyline.

Most people dislike TKO and Grail, but I would give TKO a B- and Grail a C+.

Another episode with divided opinion might be Day of the Dead. The characterizations are okay, but it always bugs me that they never explain how or why the phenomenon is possible. I'd like to think it's all a psychological phenomenon, but then how do you explain a piece of the station being "missing" (and just what does that mean). Also, why does Morden appear to Lennier (and with a new haircut), how could Zoe know to give Lochley a message from Kosh to Sheridan, and are the Brakiri technologically advanced enough to create the Day of the Dead phenomenon, or is it natually occurring? As G'Kar might say, it gives me a headache just thinking about it. I only give that episode only a C-, with the acting being the saving grace.

GaribaldisHair · Nov 30, 2004

Re: Episode Judging: The Wrong Side of Popular Opi

And, this is a doozy (and I don't qualify for this, by the way), but is anyone brave enough to admit that they liked season five *because* of Byron, not *despite* of him?

Wouldn't go that far, but I never disliked Byron (as a character) at all. I agree he needed a better introduction so that we could develop some sympathy for his (and his followers') position, but I always got the impression that his character was never supposed to be likeable, so that both the other characters (in particular Sheridan) and the audience would be conflicted between their discomfort in dealing with him as a person and their sympathy for the plight of, and desire to do something to help, the rogue telepaths.

I hated Infection when I first saw it. I thought it felt (?) like a bad ST episode. Now, years later, I found that it had it's merits. Just don't ask me what 'cause I don't remember. Backstory?

I liked it on first viewing (bearing in mind it was only ep 4, and we Brits hadn't yet had a chance to see The Gathering) precisely because it felt like a ST episode and up to that point I had been a big TNG fan. Now, I just look at it and think that the whole organic tech thing is pretty cool, but the episode itself is kind of meh.

I was so disappointed with Sleeping in Light because we didn't get any answers to the outstanding questions. We had been promised that B5 would be a five year saga - and now all those threads were left unresolved! (Like Sheridan's son, who built the Great Machine, what happened to Valen etc.)

But the problem is that those particular questions fall outside the scope of the 5 year story arc of B5, and they would have had to be shoe-horned in, disturbing the flow of the narratives.

Hated Survivors. Don't remember Eyes.

Loved Survivors ... liked Eyes a lot, and never really understood why it was so widely ignored. Greg Martin's performance is pretty angry and on the edge, which I gather had a a lot to do with his wife having walked out on him a few days before filming.

Can't decide on Ivanova's sex scene.

Hated it ... nice idea, poorly executed IMHO.

Other than a few exceptions, I am pretty much with popular opinion on things.

KoshN · Nov 30, 2004

[snip] ...
Never liked season five, not because of Byron, but because the whole season was BORING!

Click to expand...

You found the Centauri Arc boring????

Sindatur · Nov 30, 2004

Re: Episode Judging: The Wrong Side of Popular Opi

Only B5 I didn't like was the A story in TKO (which I have since gotten accustomed to and it doesn't bother me any more), but thought the B story about Ivanova dealing with her dad's death was excellent. Same with Grey 17 is missing, hated the Zarg side of the episode (still don't think much of it) but the Marcus/Neroon B story is fantastic.

Comes the Inquisitor, Intersections in Real Time, and Believers, I feel are all very good episodes, and matter alot to the arc, but, as a viewer, I feel it's a bit of a chore to watch them, probably because they are emotionally wrenching, but, certainly not based upon their quality.

I never disliked Byron's story. I enjoyed, disliking the character.

For those who feel cheated by Sleeping in the Light, that it didn't wrap up everything, as was stated the books and comic books added into Canan, do tie up some stuff, and, personally, I didn't expect absolutely everything to be tied up, no place to go from there if it were. The Great Machine, the mysteries of the Vorlons, and so on, I believe are best left unexplained. I believe the series would lose some mystery if it all got "deconstructed".

KoshN · Nov 30, 2004

I kind of like Byron because he's an interesting character, not a bad actor, and has some thought-provoking lines about willows and things (please don't shoot me!).

How about if we electro-whip you (just 39 strokes)? :devil:

My most hated episode of all is that horrible one in S5 whose name escapes me, with Sech Turval, which proves once and for all that Rangers are vicious, violent vigilante thugs.

Learning Curve.

GKarsEye · Nov 30, 2004

Is there anyone that believes Infection is a good episode?

I used to rag on this one a bit, but now that I'm going through the series again, it hit me just how much is introduced in that ep: organic tech, IPX, racial "purity," Sinclair's death wish, etc. I think what really bothered me about it was that Sinclair "reasoned" the creature to death, like Kirk did with those super computers in the TOS. When Kirk does it, it's cheesy fun, but that was 40 years ago.

Is there anyone who believes Severed Dreams or Sleeping In Light is just okay?

Dreams is brilliant. Sleeping is inappropriate viewing for non-fans. The whole episode is about how "meaningful" everything is, and it's not meaningful if you didn't follow it for 5 years. The only thing I hate about it is the "you're my sun and moon" thing.

Is one of your five most favorite episodes one that most people think is mediocre?

As someone with an intermittent obsession with the media, I absolutely love both And Now For A Word and Illusions of Truth. Top five, probably not, but I do love them more than most. I also like the very unique, experimental eps a lot more than most, like A View From the Gallery, Day of the Dead, Deconstruction of Fallin Stars, and The Corps is Mother.

Is there anyone who wonders why Survivors and Eyes don't get more attention?

They don't get more attention because the presentation of those episodes is mediocre compared to later in the show.

Can anyone actually remember, without looking at an episode guide, what The War Prayer is all about?

Yes

Does anyone else (other than me) like The Quality Mercy (B+) just *slightly* better than Babylon Squared (B) ?

Love both.

Do you believe Ivanova's "sex" scene in Acts of Sacrifice is laugh-out-loud hilarious or too painful to watch (I'm in the latter category)?

I'm with you. B5's comedy is successful in dialogue.

And, this is a doozy (and I don't qualify for this, by the way), but is anyone brave enough to admit that they liked season five *because* of Byron, not *despite* of him?

I am one of the proud defenders of Byron, and here's why: yeah, I hate him, but that's why the story works. He's smug and obnoxious and holier-than-thou. He reminds me of Louis Farakhan or Jerry Falwell, assholes who lead almost cult-like, even if their causes are based on something justifiable.

The criticism of Intersection in Real Time of "I don't like seeing Sheridan in that situation" makes no sense to me. He's my 3rd-favorite character and it's this episode that makes him so. There is something endlessly inspiring about righteous rage, noble deviance, a "fuck you" to the man. Sheridan's greatest moments, IMO, are here and the exchange with Kosh before he dies; "Impudent" "Up yours!"

To anyone with a strong opinion on Intersections (either way), I wonder what you think about Comes the Inquisitor? Two sides of the same coin, IMO, where the two central heros are tested and tortured. It also helps that the inquisitors are brilliantly portrayed, especially the slimy prick who tortures Sheridan. He reminds of Eichmann.

There's also something gripping about two or three characters occupying a small space engaged in a dramatic battle of wills. That's why these two, along with the 4th season ep where G'Kar gets 39 lashes, are amongst my favorites.

KoshN · Nov 30, 2004

The criticism of Intersection in Real Time of "I don't like seeing Sheridan in that situation" makes no sense to me. He's my 3rd-favorite character and it's this episode that makes him so. There is something endlessly inspiring about righteous rage, noble deviance, a "fuck you" to the man. Sheridan's greatest moments, IMO, are here and the exchange with Kosh before he dies; "Impudent" "Up yours!"

Hated seeing a favorite character subjected to that treatment. Loved Sheridan's righteous rage and noble deviance, though.

To anyone with a strong opinion on Intersections (either way), I wonder what you think about Comes the Inquisitor? Two sides of the same coin, IMO, where the two central heros are tested and tortured. It also helps that the inquisitors are brilliantly portrayed, especially the slimy prick who tortures Sheridan. He reminds of Eichmann.

Love "Comes the Inquisitor." Jack strikes me as less slimy than the Clark-regime torturer. The latter is something that you might see if you quickly looked under a rock. Jack wanted to find someone who would prevail. The Clark regime torturer (the worm) wanted to break Sheridan.

Elenopa · Nov 30, 2004

I know I've always been against popular opinion by liking 'Grail' and 'River of Souls', but thinking 'Thirdspace' is the weakest of the movies.

Absolutely love Ivanova's 'Boom shakalaka, boom shakalaka.'

Episode Judging: The Wrong Side of Popular Opinion

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