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Vorlons

Matthew

Member
I'm brand spakin' new to watching B5. I can't even really remember what made me start to watch it a month or so ago. On a whim, I purchased The Gathering/In the Beginning DVD and liked them both and decided to give the series a whirl -- and boy am I glad I did! I'm now up to Disc 3 of Season 4 and have enjoyed every minute!

Now, on the the topic. What is the reaction of fans to the fate of the Vorlons? I must admit, the mystery of Kosh in particular, and the Vorlons in general, is really what hooked me into the show. I wanted to know everything about them, what they looked like, etc.

I must admit, I am pretty pissed at how the Shadow War resolved. The Vorlons are 'bad' guys -- at least if not bad, morally questionable. This just irked me. It turned my favorite race into monsters!

The switches didn't bother me so much with Londo (funny to pretty evil himself) and G'Kar (pretty violent to sympathetic) but the Vorlon "switch" just frustrates me!

What are your feelings? How did fans feel at the time it was actually on TV?
 
Hi Matthew - welcome to the nuthouse! Glad you decided to join the fun.

Yes, the conclusion to the Shadow War - at the time, it certainly did stir up a hornet's nest, and many of the fans felt it was a very unclimactic way to resolve the whole arc.

I don't think it was ever the intention to show the Vorlons as "bad" per se. It was more that they had a specific agenda which they were determined to persue to the very end, and that they had lost their way. If they were the bad guys, they would have continued the destruction of the Shadows and their supporters, no matter what Lorien and the younger races would have said or how they would have acted. I mean, let's face it - no-one could have stopped the Vorlons and the Shadows if they themselves had not willingly decided that it was time to let the younger races carry on without them. Remember, both the Shadows and the Vorlons were left behind to guide the younger races, which in itself was a noble goal. It's just that they lost sight of the overall picture, and focused on their methods.

It was clever, however, of JMS to lead the viewing audience down the path of believing that the Vorlons were the "good guys", and we the audience focused on that side of them, ignoring the glimpses of the almost god-like, utterly alien way they had of viewing the races around them.
 
There's no doubt the conclusion of the Shadow war was accelerated to accommodate JMS's fears that the series would end after the 4th season, which meant he was unable to do full justice to the climatic resolution.

In relation to the Vorlon, I think you have to distinguish between your response to Kosh, and the behaviour of other Vorlons. It's apparent that Kosh is a maverick among Vorlons, and for most of the series he's the only Vorlon we see. Any affection you may feel for the Vorlons is created by your response to Kosh.

When we finally meet other Vorlons, we discover how different a being Kosh was, and how different his attitude was to the younger races. The rest of the Vorlons are pretty much arrogant SOBs ;)
 
I must admit, I am pretty pissed at how the Shadow War resolved.

Many people share that view and I can understand why. However, I'm not one of them :p

I don't really see how else it could have been resolved. It was never going to be a case of who has the biggest guns, as said in the show, it was about idealology and understanding.

It would have been nice if it had happened over a longer period of time, but since at the time there was a big question mark hanging over Season 5, then I'm glad it was resolved quickly, rather than not at all :)
 
There's a great lesson demonstrated with the Vorlons: messing around with the fate of others is bad news!

We cynical sci-fi fans may bash on Trek for the recent debacles but let's remember how wise the "Prime Directive" is. The Vorlons and Shadows are arrogant and their plans backfired, which has happened with every imperial power on earth that thought, "WE'LL do it right!" and proceed to nation build or revolutionise or invade or occupy or support counter-revolutionaries, and it's always just a fucking mess.

I hated the goddamn the Vorlons from the start because of this and their conclusion is logical.
 
I suppose I should rephrase myself, I'm not pissed at how the war itself ended, I think it was fine.

I just hate how JMS manipulated me into liking the Vorlons and then making them less than admirable, which was shown in the fullest extent when the war ended.

So, I didn't expect a huge space battle -- my disappointment was in how the Vorlons turned out.
 
Matthew, why did you like the Vorlons? They manipulated everyone into doing their bidding, including genetic engineering and the creation of a sub-race of people that caused the death of countless people on a planet not prepared for them. They use people but don't tell them anything and obviously don't value life.
 
Well, basically Demon's right. Most of the time, the only Vorlon around was Kosh, and he could be a little nasty at times himself (witness his behavior in "Deathwalker," to say nothing of using Sebastian in "Comes the Inquisitor"). But by and large Kosh was a good guy, especially once he'd decided to back Sheridan to the hilt. If you like Kosh, you've picked up on the fact that he was likeable and generally of use to our heroes when he chose to be. If you liked all Vorlons based on just seeing Kosh -- then you've been manipulated.
 
You all have given me much to think about! I'm glad I found these boards!

I did like Kosh. I hated Kosh2. And I hated what the Vorlon fleet was doing to any planet that was touched by the Shadows.

But seeing as how Kosh was just about all we knew about the Vorlons, it made it much more difficult for me to "accept" what his race was doing.

The whole mystery surrounding Kosh was what drew me into the show, and to come to kind out his people were not acting honorably, it just was frustrating.

Part of me loves how JMS manipulated me into thinking one way about Kosh (and a slew of other ideas/people on the show) but the other part hates how Kosh & the Vorlons are not what I once thought they were.

While frustrating, it's also part of B5 that I love the most. He truly does throw the audience for a loop, unlike more TV shows.
 
Welcome, Matthew!

I see the Vorlons a bit differently. Having been afflicted with Catholicism at an earlier age, I would compare them to the church. They want to do what they believe is good. They want to protect humanity from evil (Shadows.) They are stern and self-righteous. They tolerate no insubordnation, aka heresy. They think the always know what is right, and that lesser mortals should obey. As others have said, Kosh (I) was less stern, and more sympathetic. When it came to eliminating everyone who had contact with the Shadows, no doubt they thought that was necessary, much like stopping a spreading plague. But, of course, much of their methods were wrong. And, some of the Shadows' motives, but not much of their methods, could be said to be good. Point being, there is no black and white, no pure good, no pure evil. Not exactly a new theme, but artfully demonstrated by JMS. I'm sure you weren't the only one caught off guard by it.

As to the conclusion of the Shadow War, I did find it almost anti-climatic. But, I did appreciate the philosophy and ingenuity of it. What I expected, was that Sheridan's plan was to get the Shadows and Vorlons to fight each other, and to try and eliminate the survivors with his few First Ones allies, and the newer race allies. That seemed a reasonable strategy, and would have produced a great final battle, as I think most of us have come to expect in such cases. But, JMS was more clever, and had a morally better idea. So, I missed the fight, but appreciate the result for what it was.
 
as I think most of us have come to expect in such cases.

I think this is why I like the way the war is concluded. It's not the typical fare that most stories have. It's not a "Gosh darn it, we faught them and kicked their ass, yay we won" sort of conclusion that seems every action story gets resolved with.
 
as I think most of us have come to expect in such cases.

I think this is why I like the way the war is concluded. It's not the typical fare that most stories have. It's not a "Gosh darn it, we faught them and kicked their ass, yay we won" sort of conclusion that seems every action story gets resolved with.

Agreed.
 
Hmm, JDeMartino or Jan, can you weigh in on JMS rushing the end of the Shadow/Vorlon war? It was my understanding that the only rushed was that some Season 5 introduction was supposed to be done in the final 4 or 5 episodes of Season 4, so S5 blended into S4 better, without the stop/start jolt of the arc, and that the end of Season 4, would've still been playing out about 2-4 epsiodes into Season 5 (In other words, the final 4 of Season and the first 4 of Season 5, would've basically had the same things occur within the 8 episode span, but would've been blended together smoother, rather than an abrupt end and a slow restart).

Regarding the Vorlons and the Shadows, I don't think it was so much that the Vorlons were ultimately revealed to be the bad guys, but rather than the Shadows were ultimately revealed not to be the Bad guys. They were just two parents, with different ideology, and got caught up to much in their ideology. Neither were completely bad as we thought the Shadows were, and neither of them was completely good as we thought the Vorlons were. They were both flawed, and manipulative, but doing what they thought was best, out of love for the younger races.
 
Except then it became about winning rather than about helping the young ones. Lorien and Kosh were probably the only ones who really had the best interests of the younger races truly at heart, and Kosh only came around to that position after he met Sheridan.
 
Hmm, JDeMartino or Jan, can you weigh in on JMS rushing the end of the Shadow/Vorlon war?

Specific to the Shadow war, JMS wrote:

Are you happy with having to hurry season four along in case the show isn't renewed?
Truth: I go back and forth. The "Into the Fire" thing, for instance... it would've likely been a two-part episode, but it still would've ended up exactly where it ended up. A few more big explosions, but I wonder also if that really adds anything past a certain point.
From a production standpoing, since "Fire" darn near killed us in the CGI department, it's probably a darned good thing it DIDN'T go for 2 eps. That puppy had something around 120 or 140 EFX shots.

Overall, I'm actually quite happy with how this season is going, in terms of the intensity of the arc and the emotions and incidents. Parts would've been a bit more laid-back if I had decided not to cover my bets on renewal, and maybe the situation has worked out to the best (again the ABA principle, Art By Accident).

So I dunno...all I know is what's in the episodes this season, and it's pretty cool overall....

Sindatur wrote:
It was my understanding that the only rushed was that some Season 5 introduction was supposed to be done in the final 4 or 5 episodes of Season 4, so S5 blended into S4 better, without the stop/start jolt of the arc, and that the end of Season 4, would've still been playing out about 2-4 epsiodes into Season 5 (In other words, the final 4 of Season and the first 4 of Season 5, would've basically had the same things occur within the 8 episode span, but would've been blended together smoother, rather than an abrupt end and a slow restart).

Also pretty accurate. JMS posted:
This is, again, a misnomer. The arc didn't *end* in year 4, nor
did I end it. Which becomes utterly evident once you see the final
episodes. All I did was to more or less isolate the incidents in year
5 from the preceding year, so we could go into them or not.

What you have to do, which I've noted before, is to step back
for a moment and look at the series as a whole. Every season, we do
basically the same thing: we end on a cliffhanger, then the first 4-5
episodes of the next season resolve the threads and the cliffhanger
from the prior season, and then we're off onto the next thread. They
overlap by about 4-5 episodes.

So what I did was to pull those 4 episodes from the start of
season 5 into season 4, which would otherwise have ended at 418 as the
cliffhanger. So there wasn't really that much crammed into 4, and
everything that was going to be in 5 is still there, with room for
about 3-4 standalones, which will be a nice break.

In addition, in a memo to the cast and crew that accompanied the SiL script, JMS wrote in part:

The threads that would go into a fifth year have been isolated from the rest; if we go, we do them; if we don't, they go into the follow-up series
Sindatur wrote:
Regarding the Vorlons and the Shadows, I don't think it was so much that the Vorlons were ultimately revealed to be the bad guys, but rather than the Shadows were ultimately revealed not to be the Bad guys. They were just two parents, with different ideology, and got caught up to much in their ideology. Neither were completely bad as we thought the Shadows were, and neither of them was completely good as we thought the Vorlons were. They were both flawed, and manipulative, but doing what they thought was best, out of love for the younger races.

I never completely bought that the Vorlons were completely benevolent. Even as far back as 'Deathwalker', Kosh blithely overrode the decision the younger races had made. It was as if he'd hung back to see what they'd do and then exercised a decisive veto. Somewhere both the Vorlons and the Shadows had lost sight of the fact that their purpose was to help the younger races and began thinking of us as mere pawns.

Jan
 
Let us know when you get to a certain Sheridan specific episode in the next "story arc". I don't want to spoil anything but it will be an unusual episode that stands out from the rest. This was the episode originally intended as the end to season four if I remember correctly and you can see how the extra time might have added to the end of the Shadow War.

The episode in question has very few characters involved.
 

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