B5TV.COM. Babylon 5 forums Babylon 5 message for the fans from Claudia Christian Babylon 5

Go Back   B5TV.COM > Babylon 5, Crusade and Rangers > B5.world

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old July 30th 20, 16:36   #1
NorrinRadd
Lurker
 
Join Date: Jun 2020
Posts: 4
Shadows, Vorlons, and... math?

In "Interludes and Examinations," the two (or so) Shadows that always accompanied Morden were able to assassinate Kosh.

In "Into the Fire," two Centauri guards are able to kill Morden's two Shadow guardians by shooting them with what appeared to be PPG rifles.

In "Falling Toward Apotheosis," a small cadre of B5 security personnel fire PPGs at Ulkesh with no effect at all. Later, a much larger group fire PPG rifles at him, AND he is hit by massive electrical discharges from the station's power grid. This only manages to break his encounter suit's headpiece and piss him off.

So...

2 Shadows > 1 Vorlon

2 PPG rifles > 2 Shadows

1 Vorlon > multiple PPG rifles and more

The math doesn't work out. It's worse than Rock-Paper-Scissors-Lizard-Spock.
NorrinRadd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 30th 20, 17:20   #2
Springer
Telepath
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 506
Re: Shadows, Vorlons, and... math?

Presumably the Shadows had knowledge about how to hurt Kosh (we didn't see how the Shadows killed Kosh, but they don't seem to carry guns so they must have some other method). They also managed to damage his suit in Signs and Portents. I also always felt that to some extent Kosh submitted to his execution, because they were the rules that the Vorlons and Shadows agreed to play by.

But the Vorlons certainly seem stronger than the Shadows – at least while they are inside their encounter suits, which may have extra shielding. The Shadows are 'naked' in comparison. Sheridan was able to, if not kill one, hold his own against one of the Shadows with his little PPG on Z'Ha'Dum.

Then again, a little poison almost killed Kosh. I guess they had different strengths and weaknesses.
Springer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 30th 20, 21:03   #3
Looney
Telepath
 
Looney's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: Middle West U.S.
Posts: 775
Re: Shadows, Vorlons, and... math?

WELCOME NORRINRADD!!!!!

I hate to say this without going back and watching the scene, but I feel like it was more than just Morden's two guards. I'm sure I am wrong, but it seems like I remember a hint that there were more than just the two.

But points to NorrinRadd for giving my brain a workout...

(And can we all agree that the words math, spelling, and science should never be used around me.
Looney is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 31st 20, 07:36   #4
NorrinRadd
Lurker
 
Join Date: Jun 2020
Posts: 4
Re: Shadows, Vorlons, and... math?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Looney View Post
WELCOME NORRINRADD!!!!!

I hate to say this without going back and watching the scene, but I feel like it was more than just Morden's two guards. I'm sure I am wrong, but it seems like I remember a hint that there were more than just the two.

But points to NorrinRadd for giving my brain a workout...

(And can we all agree that the words math, spelling, and science should never be used around me.
I just re-watched the 3-minute clip on YouTube. It's not clear, because of the way the Shadows usually shimmer and cloak themselves. It appears to be 2, maybe 3.

I haven't been able to find a clip of the scene where Ulkesh scans the room where Kosh died. There are scorched images on the wall. It's very brief, so I'm not sure it would be possible to get a good count even if I found the clip.
NorrinRadd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 31st 20, 07:58   #5
NorrinRadd
Lurker
 
Join Date: Jun 2020
Posts: 4
Re: Shadows, Vorlons, and... math?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Springer View Post
Presumably the Shadows had knowledge about how to hurt Kosh (we didn't see how the Shadows killed Kosh, but they don't seem to carry guns so they must have some other method).
In "Walkabout," Lyta accidentally makes brief contact with the part of Kosh still living in Sheridan and discovers that the Shadows "tore him apart."

Quote:
They also managed to damage his suit in Signs and Portents. I also always felt that to some extent Kosh submitted to his execution, because they were the rules that the Vorlons and Shadows agreed to play by.
It's weird. He knew it was coming, which was why he was reluctant to do as Sheridan requested. But there was no reason he could not have safely left the station on his ship and escaped or delayed his fate, unless he figured they would then target Sheridan or something. But I believe I recall JMS long ago saying that he put up a good fight.

Quote:
But the Vorlons certainly seem stronger than the Shadows – at least while they are inside their encounter suits, which may have extra shielding. The Shadows are 'naked' in comparison. Sheridan was able to, if not kill one, hold his own against one of the Shadows with his little PPG on Z'Ha'Dum.
Even though the Shadows are older, it does seem like the Vorlons have (slightly) better tech. But even without their suits, they seem to be crazy powerful. In Falling Toward Apotheosis, Lorien says, "[FONT=Arial]The Shadows were able to kill Kosh because they are alike. Both First Ones. For you this will be much more difficult. You've never seen a Vorlon enraged. They are more powerful than you can imagine."

But that just makes it more confusing. Like you said, Sheridan's little PPG pistol was at least somewhat effective, and the Centauri PPG rifles were deadly, even though the Shadows were First Ones. Even out of his encounter suit, the PPGs had no effect against Ulkesh.
[/FONT]

Quote:
Then again, a little poison almost killed Kosh. I guess they had different strengths and weaknesses.
Yeah. That's a whole other can of spoo. Apparently 1000 years in the past, Valen didn't warn Kosh to not shake "his" had on arrival at B5.
NorrinRadd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 31st 20, 08:04   #6
Springer
Telepath
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 506
Re: Shadows, Vorlons, and... math?

I've just re-watched the scene in Interludes... , and we see three Shadows materialise in Kosh's quarters. There are two Shadow images, as well as Morden himself, on the wall in Walkabout. According to JMS on the Lurker's Guide, Kosh didn't take any of the Shadows down with him. JMS also describes their fight as being "on another whole plane", whatever that means, and that Kosh allowed himself to be targeted because if it wasn't going to be him, it would be someone else instead – and Vorlons don't run, according to JMS! He draws a comparison with the thematic narrative in Passing Through Gethsemane – Kosh was going to stay and face what was coming.

And yes, welcome NorrinRadd!

Last edited by Springer; July 31st 20 at 08:12.
Springer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 3rd 20, 21:25   #7
Looney
Telepath
 
Looney's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: Middle West U.S.
Posts: 775
Re: Shadows, Vorlons, and... math?

Did we lose a conversation? I am getting to old for this. Swear I responded to a conversation yesterday that I don't see today.
Looney is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 4th 20, 05:09   #8
Kraig
First One
 
Kraig's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: San Joaquin Valley - California
Posts: 1,288
Re: Shadows, Vorlons, and... math?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Springer View Post
I've just re-watched the scene in Interludes... , and we see three Shadows materialise in Kosh's quarters. There are two Shadow images, as well as Morden himself, on the wall in Walkabout. According to JMS on the Lurker's Guide, Kosh didn't take any of the Shadows down with him. JMS also describes their fight as being "on another whole plane", whatever that means, and that Kosh allowed himself to be targeted because if it wasn't going to be him, it would be someone else instead – and Vorlons don't run, according to JMS! He draws a comparison with the thematic narrative in Passing Through Gethsemane – Kosh was going to stay and face what was coming.

And yes, welcome NorrinRadd!
Kosh had an exit plan, he left his encounter suit so a piece of his mind could go to Sheridan. That way he was able to go to Z'ha'dum with Sheridan. But Kosh being out of his encounter suit left him vunerable to the Shadow attack. I think that was Kosh's strategy, and he was willing to pay the price in order to be with Sheridan at Z'ha'dum.
__________________
“As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart’s desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.” — H. L. Mencken, Baltimore Evening Sun, 26 July 1920

"I've been on food stamps and welfare, did anybody help me out? No. No."
-- Craig T. Nelson
Kraig is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 10th 20, 15:27   #9
Looney
Telepath
 
Looney's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: Middle West U.S.
Posts: 775
Re: Shadows, Vorlons, and... math?

I often think about how things would be different if the show were made today. What are some opinions here ......

Who thinks there would be pressure to show the scene in its entirety?

Who thinks it would just be allowed to play out as it originally did?

I think in this world of CGI there would be a strong push to show the battle. I have no clue where JMS would fall in the debate because I don't know if his decision to not show exactly what happened was based on creative license or budgetary restraint.
Looney is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 11th 20, 22:56   #10
Jan
Psi Cop
 
Jan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Orlando, FL
Posts: 1,959
Re: Shadows, Vorlons, and... math?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Looney View Post
I often think about how things would be different if the show were made today. What are some opinions here ......

Who thinks there would be pressure to show the scene in its entirety?

Who thinks it would just be allowed to play out as it originally did?

I think in this world of CGI there would be a strong push to show the battle. I have no clue where JMS would fall in the debate because I don't know if his decision to not show exactly what happened was based on creative license or budgetary restraint.
JMS has said in the past that often *not* showing something makes it even more effective since our brains fill in the gaps. I guess the question would be whether it would serve the story in some way to show it? I'm not able to think of much use for showing it.
__________________
"You know, I used to think that life was terribly unfair. Then I thought, wouldn't it be much worse if life were fair? If all the terrible things that happen to us come because we actually deserve them? So now I take great comfort in the general hostility and unfairness of the universe." ~~Marcus Cole
Jan is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 20:32.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
©2001 - 2018 B5TV.COM