Is it illegal / wrong to download TV-shows?

In the ‘Does anyone still buy video? ‘ thread, Glacophane made the following remark:

And sometimes even if I did miss a show, in a few weeks it would appear online. But that's illegal and wrong and I would never do something like that.

Click to expand...

I realize that he/she made that remark as a joke, but it made me wondering: is it really illegal to download and watch TV-shows on your computer? Because basically, TV-shows are being aired for your FREE enjoyment, they don't cost you anything. So: where's the harm really?

One possible argument could be that you don't get commercials on downloads, which hurts the network that airs the show. BUT: what if I download a show that's showing on a network WITHOUT commercials or when I download a foreign show that hasn't been picked up by any of my country's networks?

What’s your take on this?

Well for one depending on what station the show is being aired it does cost you something, mainly in the fact that you are paying a monthly bill for cable or satellite. Also since the main income a lot of these stations is from commercials, downloading a show minus commercials is hurting the station airing the show. So I guess it could be said to be illegal. Though I'd say downloading is not illegal, but putting a show online available for download is.

It's probably illegal to upload the show, because only the network and syndicators have broadcasting rights.

Wrong? I guess you will have to decide for yourself.

But, .....

is it really illegal to download and watch TV-shows on your computer? Because basically, TV-shows are being aired for your FREE enjoyment, they don't cost you anything.

Click to expand...

Yes it is illegal. Your argument doesn't hold water. Radio stations broadcast songs for free reception and I think that we have all noticed by now that it is illegal to download those songs (aside from few sites that are licensed to *sell* the downloads).

And, as GKE pointed out, the broadcasting TV station / network paid for the right (often having paid extra to make sure the right was "exclusive" for some period of time) to run the show. The sites that you are downloading from generally have not paid for those rights and are distributing the shows illegally.

I have allways made the assumption that copying any show on tv onto your pc is a breach of copyright law . Wether it is from a "free channel" or not . You are still reproducing a copyrighted product . Even it is for your own benefit i am pretty sure that copyright law makes that clear . Now is it Illegal and wrong ? I would say it is illegal to reproduce copyrighted material , but wether it is wrong ; No Comment

I would say it is illegal to reproduce copyrighted material , but wether it is wrong ; No Comment

Click to expand...

When I posted this thread I already assumed that it is probably illegal to download/upload TV-shows. And sofar the various posts to suggest it's illegal sound very sensible to me. But now, is it really wrong ?

For this to be an discussion item, I should probably define what I mean by 'wrong'. I see it like this: I know downloading a song is illegal, but I don't consider it 'wrong' unless I was intending to buy the CD in the first place, and I always end up buying the CD if I really get hooked on it. It's something I do out of respect for the artist and because mp3 quality is inferior to the real thing.

Now to TV-shows. Is it wrong to download an episode of (for example) Angel before it's being aired in my country? In my book it really isn't. I know the network pays money to buy the show, receives money from advertisements and is subsequently hurt when nobody watches.

BUT: they don't know I'm not watching do they? I can justify downloading music to myself because it hasn't caused me to stop buying less CD's: there's no financial loss to the artist. Same for downloading TV-shows: there's no financial loss to the people behind the show or the network.

Whether it's wrong or not is a matter of opinion. Some feel it's always wrong to break the law no matter what, and that one should always endeavor to change the law first. The doctrine of civil disobedience, however, encourages the peaceful and open breaking of the law to achieve a goal. I'm not comparing downloaders to Ghandi, but you know what I mean.

IMO, no, it's not wrong. I mean, it's just some TV. Big freakin' deal. No one's gonna die or starve.

The other piece of the doctrine of civil disobediance is being fully prepared to accept the sentence under the current law.

When people like Ghandi or King engaged in civil disobediance they were breaking the law in full view of both the authorities and the public. The point was to create a situation where either the authorities choose not to enforce the law, in which case it becomes meaningless, or they enforce the law and the protester accepts the punishment, in which case the injustice of it becomes more readily apparent to a larger percentage of the population and pressure mounts to change the law. Downloading could conceivably be done as an act of civil disobediance IF you were doing it very publically so that everyone (including everyone who might sue you over it) *knew* exactly what you were doing.

However, if you are doing for the personal benefit without any intention of getting caught then you can make no claim to "civil disobediance". At that point you are in the realm of "scoff law", just like everyone who is speeding on the freeway. I speed quite often, but I have no illusions that it constitutes "civil disobediance".


And if you are only buying the CD's that you "really get hooked on", then the labels would argue that you *are* costing them (and by extension the artists) money. Some percentage of the people doing that would have otherwise sampled the album by buying it. Even if only one person in each neighborhood or group of friends decided to buy the album based on the hit single and then everyone else passed because the rest of it wasn't that good, that is still more sales than they get people when people download all the songs in order to make that discovery.

No, it's not civil disobedience. I was giving another example when breaking the law isn't necessarily "wrong" in the viewpoint of some people.

The argument that someone downloading the music would have sampled it my purchasing it can be countered by the situation of someone wanting to sample an album but not wanting to pay for it, so they don't sample it at all and the record company doesn't get paid anyway, which is far more likely to occur, in my experience. At least downloading means that peron might buy it.

But then I don't sleep if they lose money, anyway.

I've downloaded a few of my favourite episodes of some shows. I don't view that as any different from taping said program on the VCR. Afterall, I did watch the original broadcast. I enjoy having them on my computer because I can easily access my favourite parts of the episode, and 'cause I can put it on in the background as I work on my computer.

But I also download shows I don't have access to. Cable programs like Dead Like Me and Carnivale. In those cases, had I not been able to download them, I wouldn't have coughed up the cash to get those channels anyway, I simply wouldn't have watched. But now, having seen those shows, I am considering getting the DVD sets, when they come out.

While it's certainly illegal, if you consider a situation in which:

1) you don't live in a Nielsen household,
2) you're downloading a show on a channel that you already get, whether it be because it's been broadcast in another country and you're getting it early, or because you simply find it more convenient to download than to program your VCR,

then I think that's about as close to a victimless crime as you can get. Yes, you're cheating the broadcasters by not watching the commercials, but they have no way to measure that if you're not in a Nielsen household, so you're really not costing them a dime.

For now, it's only a small segment of the population that downloads. TV downloaders get virtually no press attention, as all of the focus is on music and movie piracy. But that may change eventually, and I think the TV networks are going to have a much harder time convincing people that downloading TV shows is wrong than the music and movie industries have had selling the message that downloading music or movies is wrong. We're used to paying for music and movies, and used to getting television for free. The networks have very little chance of convincing people that getting their shows through a different medium is wrong.

I've been watching Battlestar Galactica in DVD, a show from 1978, and each episode is over 48 minutes.

An episode of 24 these days is like 43 minutes. Both take an hour to broadcast.

And then they wonder why people download, Tivo, etc. Pfft.

then I think that's about as close to a victimless crime as you can get. Yes, you're cheating the broadcasters by not watching the commercials, but they have no way to measure that if you're not in a Nielsen household, so you're really not costing them a dime.

Click to expand...

My sentiment exactly, but then you bring up something that made me think:

For now, it's only a small segment of the population that downloads. TV downloaders get virtually no press attention, as all of the focus is on music and movie piracy. But that may change eventually, and I think the TV networks are going to have a much harder time convincing people that downloading TV shows is wrong than the music and movie industries have had selling the message that downloading music or movies is wrong.

Click to expand...

And that of course, is a very good point. As more and more people get broadband internet, it becomes more and more easy to download music, television shows and movies. In the end, this may mean that so many people are downloading TV-shows, it might even result in a lot of shows not getting made anymore. With so many people downloading, a show becomes worthless after its initial broadcast, and no other network would be willing to buy it.

At the moment I'm still all for programs like Overnet and Kazaa, but considering the long-term effects, a ban on these services might be most beneficial for artist and audience alike.

you don't live in a Nielsen household,

Click to expand...

Excuse me for bieng a bit dim here , But what do you mean ?

Excuse me for bieng a bit dim here , But what do you mean ?

Click to expand...

Sorry, I guess I was being a bit Yankee-centric here. Nielsen is the company that tracks TV ratings in the US and Canada. I don't know how it's done in the UK or anywhere else, so I can't comment on that, but what Nielse does is track the viewing habits of a randomly selected sample of households to see which shows are being watched, and this determines all the advertising rates. Here's a quick explanation:

http://entertainment.howstuffworks.com/question433.htm

The one catch is that everyone whose viewing habits are being recorded knows that their viewing habits are being recorded. If you're not part of a Nielsen household, then you know that what you watch has no impact on which shows make it and which shows don't.

you're downloading a show on a channel that you already get, ...

then I think that's about as close to a victimless crime as you can get. Yes, you're cheating the broadcasters by not watching the commercials,

Click to expand...

In fact, this is not really any different to recording the program on your VCR and FF through the commercials?

And if you are only buying the CD's that you "really get hooked on", then the labels would argue that you *are* costing them (and by extension the artists) money. Some percentage of the people doing that would have otherwise sampled the album by buying it.

Click to expand...

If I want to buy a CD and I'm not sure if I will like it - I will either listen to it in the shop, or (if I'm buying online) I will listen to the sample provided on the site. Either way, I'm not going to buy a CD I don't like. And if I really like an album, I will always buy it!

I don't see anything wrong in it. I download Stargate SG-1 for example, because that way I can view the newest episodes without having to wait for a couple of years here. Here in Finland they showed only the last ep of season 4, and now they say that "we will not have aqcuired rights to show SG-1 anymore" so of course I'll dl my favorite show, plug svhs cable to my tv from pc and watch it. It's practical and easy. Besides... it's exactly same with VCR recording, only the storage capacity isn't so limited.

As it was pointed out earlier, downloading of tv shows is not as noticeable as the downloading of music and movies. I can understand this. For each movie downloaded, this means a person or persons did not pay the 8 to 10 bucks to get into a theater to watch it. The same for cd's. But with television you pay your cable bill once a month, or you can just get some of the channels on antenna. I dont think the television industry is too worried about file downloading as I cannot see how they can actually lose money. There are too many channels available for people to throw away cable or satellite for the oppurtunity to just download their fav shows. Now I'm not too famaliar with how the system works, but most channels make their money from advertising anyway dont they?

As for the question of right and wrong..well I guess its right as long as you dont get caught.

Now I'm not too famaliar with how the system works, but most channels make their money from advertising anyway dont they?

Click to expand...

TV stations with large audiences can charge more to run adverts than those with small audiences.

One possible argument could be that you don't get commercials on downloads, which hurts the network that airs the show. BUT: what if I download a show that's showing on a network WITHOUT commercials or when I download a foreign show that hasn't been picked up by any of my country's networks?

What’s your take on this?

Click to expand...

Downloading is not wrong, but it can be misused. Some people only download, and never buy a single video or vhs. Personally, I don't care much if it's legal or not, since we live in a world where most laws are wrong.

I download lots of TV shows and movies. Most are so bad they get deleted right away. But some shows are just quality TV, and they get my full support.

Firefly is a good example. After downloading, I was completely hooked. I pre-ordered the DVD's about 5 months before they were released. Now I got a few flyers and pictures promoting the 2005 movie, and about 20 friends of mine are watching the show here on Dutch TV. And Firefly was picked up in my country because of it's huge fan base, not because of ratings or such. So I believe downloading in this case has helped the show become an international succes.