Londo's 3/5 chances

Re: Londo\'s 3/5 chances

Londo knew he didn't have much time and that the keeper would evently wake up, probably before Sheridan and Delenn got off Centauri Prime, so he knew he would have to die so Sheridan could escape and therefore live.

Besides, if it's Sheridan, then his last two chances come simultaneously, and that's not good storytelling.

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Why not? Actually, I think its great storytelling. Life doesn't come in perfect order. Like Joe said:

one more irony in a life full of them.

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Re: Londo\'s 3/5 chances

I think my point was that Londo had arranged his death with G'kar before Sheridan and Delenn were even brought to him. When he said to G'kar, "let us do it now," he didn't have to tell G'kar what it is that he wanted to do. Also they both knew they were fated to die just then. (I expect it amused them to know that they would die, not because they hated each other all that time, but to save Sheridan and Delenn.)

In other words, Londo had planned to die some time before. It was not a moment of conversion; that had come some time before. Now I'll acknowledge that JMS is sneaky enough to put one of Londo's three chances off-camera, but I don't think that's what he did.

As to storytelling, it just rubs me wrong to fortell three chances, have one of them occur within a year, and then the other two occur practically on top of each other seventeen years later. If all five chances are contained within the five years of the story, it makes more sense. Although it's not one chance per year, annoyingly...

... maybe I'll just give up and lose gracefully.

Re: Londo\'s 3/5 chances

I think my point was that Londo had arranged his death with G'kar before Sheridan and Delenn were even brought to him.

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Yes, but Londo knew he would have to save Sheridan and that he probably wouldn't have enough time to do it when Sheridan was made prisoner. So, to buy Sheridan time to get off the planet, he asked G'Kar to kill him. I think...or maybe I don't know what I'm talking about.

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I think that's basically what I was saying... it wasn't a moment of sudden revelation, it was something long-planned. Which means that the moment of decision was off-camera. I can believe that JMS is that sneaky, but I don't like it.

Re: Londo\'s 3/5 chances

Londo knew for years that he would die by the hands of G'Kar, but he didn't know exactly when, only that he would be an old man, so I don't think it was actually planned well in advance. Then again maybe I'm wrong. I'm not JMS after all.

Re: Londo\'s 3/5 chances

Apologies for digging up an old thread discussing an old topic, but I don't agree with you that Morden was the man who was "already dead". Londo's killing of Morden did not bring down the Drakh vengeance on Centauri Prime - his blowing up of the island on which the shadows were based did that. Londo had to destroy the shadow presence on Centauri Prime to prevent the Vorlon's planet killer destroying his world. In fact, he had to kill Morden to remove all traces of shadow presence, and if you remember Londo even asked Vir to kill him when it looked as though there was still a shadow presence on the planet. So I cannot see how sparing Morden was one of his chances for redemption.

His killing of Morden was of course revenge for what happened to Adira, but Morden's death didn't earn him the Drakh's attention and lead to the destruction of Centauri Prime at the hands of the Narn and Drazi, or later when Shivkhala detonated the thermonuclear bombs hidden around the planet.

I do, however, like the idea that allowing himself to be taken over by a keeper - surrendering to his greatest fear - was his final chance at redemption, which he took. He always seemed almost resigned to the fact that he would die at G'Kar's hands (as a result of his vision revealed in the first episode of season 1) so I never really saw that as his "greatest fear".

As for the first two chances, I think getting the shadows to destroy the Narn outpost in "The Coming of Shadows" was the first, followed in the same episode when he lied about what the emperor said on his death bed.

The thing I love about this show is that, so many years after it aired, we can still talk about these things and - like a really good story - there is still room for interpretation

Londo\'s 3/5 chances

I do, however, like the idea that allowing himself to be taken over by a keeper - surrendering to his greatest fear - was his final chance at redemption, which he took. He always seemed almost resigned to the fact that he would die at G'Kar's hands (as a result of his vision revealed in the first episode of season 1) so I never really saw that as his "greatest fear".

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But how does Londo getting the Keeper make him "avoid the fire that waits for you at the end of your journey"?

Re: Londo\'s 3/5 chances

He sacrificed his own desires (once you have a keeper you do what the Drakh want, not what you want) for the good of others. In the Centauri religion (or perhaps JMS' own thoughts) self-sacrifice can save you from "The fires that await you at the end of your journey" (or, Hell I suppose.)

Now, I disagree, but this is all fiction anyway, so there you have it.

As they say: "Where am I going? And why am I in this hand basket?"

:devil: :devil: :devil:

Re: Londo\'s 3/5 chances

Some interesting theories, this is what I think (remember, the first 2 are the ones Londo has already missed):

First Chance - Destroying the Outpost at at the end of season one (is it Quadrant 47?)

Second Chance - Getting the Shadows to attack the Narn fleet whilst the Centauri attacked the Narn homeworld.

The last 3 are the same as those Joe D mentions above which are what JMS has said:

Third Chance - The "eye that cannot see" is G'Kar's eye.

Fourth Chance - "The one who is already dead" is Sheridan.

Fifth Chance - give in to his greatest fear, death at the hands of G'Kar.

I've snipped out the explanations since they are quite big - just scroll up a bit to Joe's post read the full info.

Also note some of Joes comments:

JMS has explicitly commented on several of these items, but that doesn't stop people from ignoring what he's said and insisting on their own answers.

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and

Since he wrote both the prophecy and the subsequent episodes where it played out, I really can't see any reason to disagree with him.

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Neither can I

Re: Londo\'s 3/5 chances

First Chance - Destroying the Outpost at at the end of season one (is it Quadrant 47?)

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Quadrant 37

Re: Londo\'s 3/5 chances

I still can't believe that Londo's greatest fear -- at that point -- was dying at G'Kar's hands. I really thing that it's his loss of independence.

But the great thing about prophecy is that it's so hard to pin down.

Re: Londo\'s 3/5 chances

But the great thing about prophecy is that it's so hard to pin down.

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"And at the last, having failed all the others, you must surrender yourself to your greatest fear, knowing that it will destroy you."

Yes, that's terribly ambiguous and I can see how it could easily apply to events 16 years before Londo even gets his other chances, rather than to his death ("at the last") Right, his "greates feat" (which will destroy him and which he knows will destroy him) must refer to his completely unforeseen "loss of independence" rather than to his death at the hands of a Narn which has haunted his dreams for most of his life. I don't understand how I could have missed it.

Regards,

Joe

Re: Londo\'s 3/5 chances

I've gotta agree with Joe here. Clearly, death at G'Kar's hands has long been Londo's greatest nightmare. And I love the irony that it becomes his wish to die at the hands of his now best friend G'Kar, in order to save his people, something quite different from what he took his visions to mean earlier in his life.

Re: Londo\'s 3/5 chances

When discussing prophecy, it helps to have the actual text available, rather than rely on people's memories and paraphrases:

"You have a chance few others will ever have, Mollari. You still have three opportunities to avoid the fire that waits for you at the end of your journey. You've already wasted two others. You must save the eye that does not see. You must not kill the one who is already dead. And at the last, you must surrender yourself to your greatest fear, knowing that it will destroy you. Now, if you fail all the others, that is your final chance for redemption."

Regards,

Joe

Re: Londo\'s 3/5 chances

And at the last, you must surrender yourself to your greatest fear, knowing that it will destroy you. Now, if you fail all the others, that is your final chance for redemption.

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The idea that Nr 3 refers to the loss of independance is an interesting one, but I agree with Joe.

"And at the last..." "if you fail all others" indicates that the other chances must have already passed when this one arises. Asuming that "the one who is already dead" is Sheridan (which I think), and that 'not killing him' means saving him and Delenn in 2278, the third chance would have to be after that, leaving only the death at the hands of G'Kar.

I also don't see how surrendering himself to the Drakh influence really is a chance for his redemption.

Re: Londo\'s 3/5 chances

I still can't believe that Londo's greatest fear -- at that point -- was dying at G'Kar's hands.

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It may not have been his greatest fear "at that point." In fact, Londo seems kind of eagar to get it over with when he calls on G'Kar from behind the curtain. But Lady Morella did not say that it would be his greatest fear in the future, she was talking about his greatest fear at the time of the prophecy - BEFORE Londo and G'Kar had become close and when the Narn and Centauri were still at each other's throats. No one could know what Londo would be afraid of in 2 years, 10 years, or 20 years. Maybe spiders. At that point, dying in the way his dream had prophesied WAS Londo's greatest fear...and when she mentioned "greatest fear," I'm sure that he knew exactly what she was talking about.

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Why is everyone so sure that Londo no longer feared death at G'Kar's hands? Why can't Londo just have feared death period, the way most rational creatures do? That he understood his sacrifice was necessary, and that he knew that G'Kar was not acting out of malice and that the circumstances were very different than what he had once assumed, does not mean that he somehow welcomed his fate, or that he feared death - either annilhilation or his passport to an afterlife where all his acts might be judged and paid for - any less than he ever had.

There is a difference between accepting death and embracing it. I think Londo accepted it.

Regards,

Joe

Re: Londo\'s 3/5 chances

I like the idea of it being Londo's greatest fear at the time the prophecy was made, not when it occurred.

Some of my opinion is based off the Centauri Prime trilogy, where Londo contemplates suicide repeatedly, well over a decade before G'Kar returns to CP for the final showdown. Death is release for him. Also, in those books Londo doesn't ever really do anything evil -- of his own free will, that is. He fights the Drakh as much as he dares, not so far so that they will kill him (and ruin his albiet limited effectiveness) but still not letting them kill Sheridan. In the books, which I admit are not exactly what JMS would have wrtitten, Londo has already completed the transition from bad guy back to the light. He's trapped by his choices in the past, but he knows that they were errors, and he's trying to atone as best he can.

But part of my certainty is also my impression of him in "The Fall of Centauri Prime" where he surrenders to the Drakh. He looks incredibly noble in that scene. Noble and tragic, which of course is what JMS was going for. But also in that episode, I believe, G'Kar finally forgives Londo. And G'Kar is perhaps the galaxy's expert on matters of redemption and the spirit at that point. If anyone would know when Londo has completed his journey to light, it would be G'Kar. (Of course, the great part of forgiveness is looking past the faults you know exist, not waiting until they have gone away, but that's another story.)

So I admit that my position is logically flawed and only tenuously supported. But that's because it's a feeling, and I'll stand by it. Joe's position is the clearest, but I'll cheerfully and stubbornly disaggree for a while.

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Joe, I think you are surely right, that Londo had the normal fear of death. And while I agree that we can't assume that he welcomed or embraced death, I don't think we can be certain he only accepted it either. At that point in his life, his people were subjugated by the Drakh, he was old, probably tired of his life as it was, probably infirm, was under the control of his keeper, something he must have hated immensely, since it left him nearly powerless. He was no doubt suffering, both physically, and mentally, in many ways. To be free of all that, to save his friends, and create a hope for his people, he may well have embraced death. I don't think we see enough of him in that period, in the show, to be certain either way. But he does seem to have a great weariness about him, which leads me to think he might well have actually welcomed death under the circumstances, even though I would say that that was normally out of character for him.

Re: Londo\'s 3/5 chances

Why is everyone so sure that Londo no longer feared death at G'Kar's hands?

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Along with all that Jade Jaguar has said, I based my opinion mostly on Londo's own words..."I am as tired of my life as you are." I agree with JJ in that Londo was old, he was sick, he was weary, and he was no longer in control of his moments (and maybe his bladder). All this coupled with the fact that the prophetess' words promised him redemption if he gave in to death at G'Kar's hands could have (very plausably) made him look forward to the moment when it would all come to an end. Truly, however, we cannot know for sure what was on his mind at the end.