Completed The Series

I have always believed that when Lorien said Sheridan would "just stop," he meant his physical body, and this was not a comment on what would become of his spirit/soul/essence.

From when first I saw it, I have believed that when the "glow" took place, Lorien took Sheridan, and his essence/life force into himself, where he could sustain Sheridan, although not in physical form, for as long as he, Lorien, remained alive. I assumed Lorien then returned to "beyond the rim."

I think that is the most likely and plausible explanation, but I realize that'as just my opinion, and other interpretations may be equally valid.

Jade Jaguar said:

I have always believed that when Lorien said Sheridan would "just stop," he meant his physical body, and this was not a comment on what would become of his spirit/soul/essence.

From when first I saw it, I have believed that when the "glow" took place, Lorien took Sheridan, and his essence/life force into himself, where he could sustain Sheridan, although not in physical form, for as long as he, Lorien, remained alive. I assumed Lorien then returned to "beyond the rim."

I think that is the most likely and plausible explanation, but I realize that'as just my opinion, and other interpretations may be equally valid.

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That's an interesting thought JJ. Similar to the Soul Hunters and their collections, Lorien could be taking Sheridan's "soul" with him. Lorien probably wants someone a little more interesting to talk to while traveling past the rim. I'm sure Vorlons and Shadows are horrible conversationalists. If Soul Hunters can do it why can't The First One.

Well, some similarity, perhaps. But, I don't imagine Lorien was "collecting" Sheridan, more that he was keeping a good friend very close...

So you say Sheridan was 'absorbed' into a larger entity? That's perverse!

Even worse when Sheridan was clearly prepared and knew of this fate. Maybe he was more Lorien than Sheridan when he 'died' in SiL anyway? But while entities can join in B5 they don't merge as one, they keep their individuality - like when the Vorlons join with someone.

I prefer the evolved idea. At least you know in the B5-universe it is possible after what happened to Ironheart.

Sheridan...Ironheart part 2?

mattikake said:

So you say Sheridan was 'absorbed' into a larger entity? That's perverse!

Even worse when Sheridan was clearly prepared and knew of this fate. Maybe he was more Lorien than Sheridan when he 'died' in SiL anyway? But while entities can join in B5 they don't merge as one, they keep their individuality - like when the Vorlons join with someone.

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Actually, I didn't mean that Sheridan was absorbed in the sense that he no longer existed as an individual consciousness. I did mean precisely that he kept his individuality, just like when a Vorlon joins with someone. I see that as the only way Lorien could preserve him. The only other alternative I see is that Lorien was able to push Sheridan's evolution to the point where he gained first one status, rather than dying. But, I think that less plausible.

Jade Jaguar said:

The only other alternative I see is that Lorien was able to push Sheridan's evolution to the point where he gained first one status, rather than dying. But, I think that less plausible.

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That's exactly what I'm saying happened and I also say it is plausible to accelerate evolution this way in the B5 universe, as this is what happened to Ironheart.

Afterall he was worthy of first one status, given that he was able to teach the Shadows and Vorlons a thing or two about the big picture, and then lead the rest of the galaxy in a way the Shadows and Vorlons were apparently incapable... I think all Lorien and Kosh did was make Sheridan aware that he had what it takes, as he always had it yet most was just instinct or common sense to Sheridan, than conscious awareness.

As an aside, anyone know why Kosh took an immediate interest in Sheridan in series 2? Or was he just putting it altogether after immediately realising who Sinclair was? I.e. If Sinclair is Valen, then Sheridan must be the other third of 'the one' given his current position, or was there some other greater knowledge to it?

mattikake said:

As an aside, anyone know why Kosh took an immediate interest in Sheridan in series 2?

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Well,... because Sheridan was the first one to 'drop in' on him, for many millennia...

I'm new to this site but I've only recently 'discovered' Babylon 5, via my dad's collection hidden away on a shelf.
I've just finished watching 'Sleeping in the Light' and........wow is the only word that comes to mind. It was fitting, somber, yet......somehow it was also striking all at once.

Jade Jaguar said:

Well,... because Sheridan was the first one to 'drop in' on him, for many millennia...

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Hmmm... where was my head at here... clearly "Kosh" was written, but I responded thinking Lorien. I have no explanation, just apology...

as an aside, anyone know why Kosh took an immediate interest in Sheridan in series 2?

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Well, he was the new commander of B5... and a third of the One mentioned in Minbari prophecy. That's also why Kosh goes out of his way to save Sheridan's life in the S2 finale.

But: I agree that it's a bit awkward. I always wondered when the prophecy concerning the One who is three was made. If Valen is its source, it's strange because he cannot know that Sheridan is the One who will be - he returns to the past before even Delenn becomes Entil'Zha. I've also always nitpicked the fact that while Valen is the One who was (1000 years in the past), the two other Ones are actually making crucial decisions that justify that honorific title at the same time, and the One who will be just takes over the title after everything is done. I've never liked the One who is three very much.

mattikake said:

As an aside, anyone know why Kosh took an immediate interest in Sheridan in series 2? Or was he just putting it altogether after immediately realising who Sinclair was? I.e. If Sinclair is Valen, then Sheridan must be the other third of 'the one' given his current position, or was there some other greater knowledge to it?

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Sinclair may have told him all about Sheridan 1,000 years ago.

Heaven knows he left enough notes lying around for other people... and the vorlons reaction to Sinclair's attempt to leak information that would prevent the Earth Minbari War in "In Valen's Name"... would suggest that they were aware either through telepathic examination, or Kosh breaking a piece off of himself, or through briefings with Sinclair... about what would happen in the future.

I'm going with Kosh floating around inside Sinclair and touching hios mind, it makes sense... and having seen sinclair's memories... he would recognise Sheridan from them. It also helps explain Kosh's foreknowledge of his own death. As he dies just prior to WWE

Galahad said:

I'm going with Kosh floating around inside Sinclair and touching hios mind, it makes sense... and having seen sinclair's memories... he would recognise Sheridan from them. It also helps explain Kosh's foreknowledge of his own death. As he dies just prior to WWE

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Holy shit. That's heavy. Makes perfect sense too.

Galahad said:

Sinclair may have told him all about Sheridan 1,000 years ago.

Heaven knows he left enough notes lying around for other people... and the vorlons reaction to Sinclair's attempt to leak information that would prevent the Earth Minbari War in "In Valen's Name"... would suggest that they were aware either through telepathic examination, or Kosh breaking a piece off of himself, or through briefings with Sinclair... about what would happen in the future.

I'm going with Kosh floating around inside Sinclair and touching hios mind, it makes sense... and having seen sinclair's memories... he would recognise Sheridan from them. It also helps explain Kosh's foreknowledge of his own death. As he dies just prior to WWE

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There's also Zathras who we know told Sinclair that Sheridan was the one who will be just before he went back into the past...

What if Kosh had simply met Valen before? Valen knew the Vorlons well. Afterall Kosh was obviously very old and old enough to have met Lorien presumably at Z'Ha'Dum during an inter-war period.

There are plenty of opportunities for Kosh to know a lot about Sheridan from Valen I guess.

btw, having now just watched all of series 5 for only the 2nd time, I'm going to go back on my whole 'Sheridan evolved' to 'Sheridan was collected [by Lorien]' at the end of SiL. In the audio commentary JMS points out that Valen disappeared without a trace too - something I forgot - and it's from what JMS has told us, it's pretty clear Valen didn't meet Lorien or his kind - saying he did would be speculation at best. JMS also makes it clear that Valen would return and so perhaps Sheridan one day, and of course, you can't be dead if that is so! So I kinda agree with Jade Jaguar that Lorien came back to collect Sheridan, but in what way is more interesting. Absorbed? Looked-after in some way? Seems to hint very much that Lorien is [a form of] god, as much as an atheist could.

mattikake said:

Afterall Kosh was obviously very old and old enough to have met Lorien presumably at Z'Ha'Dum during an inter-war period.

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Or perhaps in a pre-war period, when the Vorlons and the Shadows were not yet antagonistic, or as competitive.

So I kinda agree with Jade Jaguar that Lorien came back to collect Sheridan, but in what way is more interesting. Absorbed? Looked-after in some way?

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IMO, Lorien provided the energy for Sheridan's separate consciousness to continue to exist, within Lorien, and without the body neither could sustain any longer. You might say Lorien allowed Sheridan to leech off of him... So, not really absorbed, which implies a loss of individuality.