whats a triluminary?

Yes indeed. I confused them. Thanks for correcting.

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
unless they have read some instructions

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Minbari read instructions>??? haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa /forums/images/icons/laugh.gif /forums/images/icons/laugh.gif /forums/images/icons/laugh.gif /forums/images/icons/laugh.gif /forums/images/icons/laugh.gif

My own take on the Triluminaries is that they were never actually made. They always existed. They are an example of a Predestination Paradox. Kirk’s reading glasses and the watch in Indiana Jones and the Dial of Destiny are two more examples. It’s interesting to note that the lore says that the three Triluminaries use circuit board parts from Sinclair’s comlink (with his DNA) but however, the actual prop was made using a piece of bismuth instead. I found this out less than a month ago. When I looked up the mystical nature of bismuth, it is said that it has transformational properties in spiritual circles. I asked JMS if that was his idea but he declined to answer. To me, the absence of him confirming it is an affirmation. I really don’t think that the prop people would have just thought that up, especially when it would be much easier to use circuit board parts (!). On August 15, I made three for myself and am pleased with them.

TheFirstOne said:

My own take on the Triluminaries is that they were never actually made. They always existed. They are an example of a Predestination Paradox. Kirk’s reading glasses and the watch in Indiana Jones and the Dial of Destiny are two more examples. It’s interesting to note that the lore says that the three Triluminaries use circuit board parts from Sinclair’s comlink (with his DNA) but however, the actual prop was made using a piece of bismuth instead. I found this out less than a month ago. When I looked up the mystical nature of bismuth, it is said that it has transformational properties in spiritual circles. I asked JMS if that was his idea but he declined to answer. To me, the absence of him confirming it is an affirmation. I really don’t think that the prop people would have just thought that up, especially when it would be much easier to use circuit board parts (!). On August 15, I made three for myself and am pleased with them.View attachment 293

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We know that the triluminaries came from Epsilon 3. We saw Zathras bring them up from the planet.

Jan said:

We know that the triluminaries came from Epsilon 3. We saw Zathras bring them up from the planet.

JMSNews Re: Triluminary WAS NEVER CREATED??!? (JMS, what have you done?)

JMSNews is an archive of messages posted by J. Michael Straczynski (JMS)

jmsnews.com

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Yes, but where did Zathras get them? We never saw them built. I contend that they came from Babylon 4 (B4 [before], as in the past) and were “passed” (sounds like past) to the Minbari to be used by them after Sinclair became Valen. In the future, Zathras took them back to the past and completed the circle. Kirk’s reading glasses were never made either. He got them from Bones who bought them as an antique. Kirk pawns them in the past for cash, thus placing them for Bones to buy in the future. The glasses were never made. Kirk’s possession of them in the future and his selling them in the past becomes why they are available for Bones to buy them. Look up Predestination Paradox and prepare to have your mind blown.

TheFirstOne said:

Yes, but where did Zathras get them? We never saw them built.

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We never saw a starfury built but we know they were built somewhere. We never saw the time stabilizers built but we accept that the Great Machine made them. Why should it be any different with the triluminaries? Occam's razor.

Lacking a way to play with non-linear time ourselves, could always be a temporal loop or if all else fails, cheat and assume the item originally came from another timeline. But if assuming some sort of loop...
- Original glasses(α) made
- Glasses(α) sit somewhere for a few centuries
- McCoy buys glasses(α) as a gift for Kirk
- Kirk breaks one of the lenses
- Kirk takes glasses(α) into the past
- Now there are TWO sets: Original glasses(α) and Kirk's broken-lenses glasses(β)
- Kirk sells/leaves-behind glasses(β)
- Both sets sit somewhere for a few centuries
- As before, McCoy buys glasses(α) as a gift for Kirk
- Glasses(β) remain on a dusty shelf
- Kirk returns from the past
- Glasses(β) are available for McCoy to purchase "again" for Kirk's NEXT birthday

But could also mention - from the same film - Scotty giving information about Transparent Aluminum "How do we know he didn't invent the thing?".


Many ways to potentially explain the Triluminaries. But weren't there THREE of these to begin with? Did he take ALL THREE(α) with him on B4? Perhaps they were originally made (α) 1,000 years ago, one (or ? all) of them went with Sinclair, and then they'd be in the past as (β) duplicates while the original set(α) would still get made 1,000-ish years ago on Epsilon 3. When the present/WWE rolls around, Sinclair "again" heads back with B4 and the original Triluminary(α), but the (β) set could still exist. Going forward there would be Just One Set that happens to be 2,000 years old. Possibly sitting in a box in the same chamber as the the How They Did Know Your Name letter, but with instructions stating "open this box two weeks AFTER you open the boxes with the letters for Sinclair and Delenn". Could be something more mundane and what Sinclair/Valen had (β) broke down or was eaten, so they made New Ones (α) - in the past - for the Minbari to use 1,000 years in the future.

- (α) Made on Epsilon 3
- (α) Sits around for 1,000 years
- (α) Taken into the past with Sinclair and becomes (β)
- Sinclair/Valen writes some letters and places them in boxes to be opened in 1,000 years
- Sinclair places (β) in a box to be opened in 1,000 years + Two Weeks
- (α) Made on Epsilon 3
- (α) Sits around for 1,000 years
- (β) and some letters are sitting in some boxes out of history's way
- (α) Taken into the past with Sinclair and become (β)
- Minbari are sad as Sinclair swiped the Triluminaries(α)
- But they follow instructions and eventually open the + Two Weeks box...
- (β) are inside! Minbari are happy again.

...Possibly Past Zathras sits on (β) and breaks it, so he makes replacements (α) and hopes no one will notice. In which case the Minbari are sad since after WWE they are missing one of their most important relics.


Semi-Unrelated: (TRH Spoilers) The opening IPX Exposition shows Sheridan running down the hill, which technically "does not happen" till later in the film. For the viewer it is out of sequence, but for Sheridan, it is linear since he progresses from present to future to past to present. A more interesting Semi-Related TRH point might be "If Sinclair never travels into the past with B4 and becomes Valen, how does this effect the Shadow War, the Minbari, and even Delenn?" But could always cheat and say "another timeline already intervened so no need to do it again", which is how they ended the Stargate episode when they did/didn't return to ancient Egypt to find a ZPM since they Already Had It.

Jan said:

We never saw a starfury built but we know they were built somewhere. We never saw the time stabilizers built but we accept that the Great Machine made them. Why should it be any different with the triluminaries? Occam's razor.

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Believe what you wish, as I have no problem with what anyone thinks. I’m just giving my opinion. It’s obvious to me that JMS has kept it somewhat vague so that each viewer can resolve it their own way. For me, using the phrase “War Without End” in two episode titles seems to suggest a loop of some kind. Oh, another example of a predestination paradox is from Terminator 2.

Jan said:

We know that the triluminaries came from Epsilon 3. We saw Zathras bring them up from the planet.

JMSNews Re: Triluminary WAS NEVER CREATED??!? (JMS, what have you done?)

JMSNews is an archive of messages posted by J. Michael Straczynski (JMS)

jmsnews.com

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Just to clarify, we don't actually *see* Zathras bring the triluminaries specifically. I had to search for which episode their origin was mentioned in, looks like it was explained by Delenn in Atonement – a detail that was easy to have missed or forgotten (I had!)

Btw, welcome to the forum, TheFirstOne!

Another option is this:

Note: don't know the exact years so those are placeholders.
For fun, I'll assume Zathras has enternal life like Lorien. This to cover a detail from The Road Home..

• Triluminary is made in year 0. Let's call that TTL1 (triluminary timeline 1)
• Zathras is born in 2150.
• In the year 2260 Babylon four is taken to the past. Let's say the year 1000.
• The year 1000 now has two Triluminarys (TTL1, TTL2) and one Zathras

Continuing on from timeline 2.

• The year 1000 has two triluminaries and 1 Zathras.
• Zathras from timeline 2 is born in the year 2150.
• In the year 2260 Babylon four is taken to the year 1000.
• The year 1000 now has three Triluminaries, and two Zathrasses.

Continuing on from timeline 3.

• The year 1000 has three triluminaries and 2 Zathrasses.
• Zathras from timeline 3 is born in the year 2150.
• In the year 2260 Babylon four is taken to the year 1000.
• The year 1000 now has four Triluminaries, and three Zathrasses.

During the main series of Babylon 5, it was mentioned there were 10 Zathrasses. So in my theory the timeline was reset 9 times.

During "The road home" there were 100s of Zathrasses. Presumably Sheridan's hopping through time caused more and more timelines, and thereby more and more Zathrasses (and Triluminaries), to appear.

Springer said:

Just to clarify, we don't actually *see* Zathras bring the triluminaries specifically. I had to search for which episode their origin was mentioned in, looks like it was explained by Delenn in Atonement – a detail that was easy to have missed or forgotten (I had!)

Btw, welcome to the forum, TheFirstOne!

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I looked on the JMS news forum and found a comment from JMS (12/10/1996) where he says that the “Triluminaries originally came from Epsilon 3 with the other equipment brought aboard by Zathras.” That would be the box that is dropped with the triangle symbol. This still doesn’t say who made them but in another comment JMS says it wasn’t the Minbari. I can still hold fast to my theory about the predestination paradox with a small addition. We do see an alternate timeline where the Shadows destroy B5 and that’s because B4 didn’t go back 1000 years. So just perhaps, the Vorlons “cheat” and insert B4 and Valen into the past, as we see. However, the majority of the series is not the prime timeline but a “course correction” in order to beat the Shadows in the past. Only then (with the insertion of Valen) does the loop happen and self generate. It would be like pushing a car that has a defective starter or pulling the cord on a lawnmower engine. After that initial interaction, it can run by itself. This slight modification to my theory should be consistent with what happens in the series. I haven’t seen the new B5 movie but should be able to in a week or so. Also, I own the entire B5 collection (including movies) and plan to watch again after many years. I’m probably going to watch it in broadcast order like I originally did rather than chronological order, as I can handle nonlinear input (lol).

TheFirstOne said:

I looked on the JMS news forum and found a comment from JMS (12/10/1996) where he says that the “Triluminaries originally came from Epsilon 3 with the other equipment brought aboard by Zathras.” That would be the box that is dropped with the triangle symbol. This still doesn’t say who made them but in another comment JMS says it wasn’t the Minbari. I can still hold fast to my theory about the predestination paradox with a small addition. We do see an alternate timeline where the Shadows destroy B5 and that’s because B4 didn’t go back 1000 years. So just perhaps, the Vorlons “cheat” and insert B4 and Valen into the past, as we see. However, the majority of the series is not the prime timeline but a “course correction” in order to beat the Shadows in the past. Only then (with the insertion of Valen) does the loop happen and self generate. It would be like pushing a car that has a defective starter or pulling the cord on a lawnmower engine. After that initial interaction, it can run by itself. This slight modification to my theory should be consistent with what happens in the series. I haven’t seen the new B5 movie but should be able to in a week or so. Also, I own the entire B5 collection (including movies) and plan to watch again after many years. I’m probably going to watch it in broadcast order like I originally did rather than chronological order, as I can handle nonlinear input (lol).

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Here is a thought that I had earlier that has nothing to do with my previous comments. So, Valen forms the Grey Council, composed of nine members with each faction having three. What if the term “Triluminaries,” suggesting they related to the council, might also refer to Earth’s moon? Why? Because Triluminary might also mean “three full moons” or an Earth month. There are three Triluminaries or together, meaning nine months. Although the Human gestation period is really 10 months (I only found this out today), nine months is well known. So, it might be that fate (JMS) made certain that the Grey Council had nine members. After all, it was Valen (Sinclair) that made them in the first place. This might also connect with the Minbari belief that Minbari souls were being born into Humans. Just as a fun bit of coincidence, in a few days we will have a Super Blue Moon. A tenth full moon in three months.

Springer said:

Just to clarify, we don't actually *see* Zathras bring the triluminaries specifically. I had to search for which episode their origin was mentioned in, looks like it was explained by Delenn in Atonement – a detail that was easy to have missed or forgotten (I had!)

Btw, welcome to the forum, TheFirstOne!

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The episode should be War Without End, Part 2.

TheFirstOne said:

The episode should be War Without End, Part 2.

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No, it is in Atonement, when Delenn is explaining to the rest of her clan how she is a descendent of Valen. I don't have the episode immediately to hand to confirm myself, but JMS' post that Jan linked to above is dated after WWE part 2 aired, and in it he refers to a forthcoming episode made after WWE part 2. The Lurker's Guide entry confirms it is the episode Atonement: http://www.midwinter.com/lurk/countries/us/guide/075.html

I think you're really stretching on linking it to the lunation of the Moon, to be honest. The blue moon on 31 August is the ninth full moon of the year, not the tenth in three months (which is impossible).

Edit: Ok, I've just downloaded the episode. At the end, after Lennier has got the scrolls from the archives, Delenn's dialogue is: "Valen, who created the Grey Council, defeated the Shadows, a Minbari not born of Minbari, we know was Jeffrey Sinclair, a human who became Minbari, genetically altered by the triluminary he received from Epsilon III."

Now, interestingly, Delenn only mentions one triluminary and we know there were more triluminaries than that, so there's room there for theories. But the triluminary that Sinclair took into the past definitely came from Epsilon III. Presumably it is the same one that Delenn used for her chrysalis, in which case that would mean that Delenn has it now.

TheFirstOne said:

Here is a thought that I had earlier that has nothing to do with my previous comments. So, Valen forms the Grey Council, composed of nine members with each faction having three. What if the term “Triluminaries,” suggesting they related to the council, might also refer to Earth’s moon? Why? Because Triluminary might also mean “three full moons” or an Earth month. There are three Triluminaries or together, meaning nine months. Although the Human gestation period is really 10 months (I only found this out today), nine months is well known. So, it might be that fate (JMS) made certain that the Grey Council had nine members. After all, it was Valen (Sinclair) that made them in the first place. This might also connect with the Minbari belief that Minbari souls were being born into Humans. Just as a fun bit of coincidence, in a few days we will have a Super Blue Moon. A tenth full moon in three months.

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Or not...

Jan said:

Or not...

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Yeah, I messed up my theory. I of course meant one full moon per month (nine months) with each Triluminary covering 3 months. I just checked X and saw JMS’s reply before coming here. It was a fun idea. I thanked JMS for the kind reply but have never really liked Freud very much. Carl Jung rules. ?

Springer said:

No, it is in Atonement, when Delenn is explaining to the rest of her clan how she is a descendent of Valen. I don't have the episode immediately to hand to confirm myself, but JMS' post that Jan linked to above is dated after WWE part 2 aired, and in it he refers to a forthcoming episode made after WWE part 2. The Lurker's Guide entry confirms it is the episode Atonement: http://www.midwinter.com/lurk/countries/us/guide/075.html

I think you're really stretching on linking it to the lunation of the Moon, to be honest. The blue moon on 31 August is the ninth full moon of the year, not the tenth in three months (which is impossible).

Edit: Ok, I've just downloaded the episode. At the end, after Lennier has got the scrolls from the archives, Delenn's dialogue is: "Valen, who created the Grey Council, defeated the Shadows, a Minbari not born of Minbari, we know was Jeffrey Sinclair, a human who became Minbari, genetically altered by the triluminary he received from Epsilon III."

Now, interestingly, Delenn only mentions one triluminary and we know there were more triluminaries than that, so there's room there for theories. But the triluminary that Sinclair took into the past definitely came from Epsilon III. Presumably it is the same one that Delenn used for her chrysalis, in which case that would mean that Delenn has it now.

Click to expand...

Springer said:

No, it is in Atonement, when Delenn is explaining to the rest of her clan how she is a descendent of Valen. I don't have the episode immediately to hand to confirm myself, but JMS' post that Jan linked to above is dated after WWE part 2 aired, and in it he refers to a forthcoming episode made after WWE part 2. The Lurker's Guide entry confirms it is the episode Atonement: http://www.midwinter.com/lurk/countries/us/guide/075.html

I think you're really stretching on linking it to the lunation of the Moon, to be honest. The blue moon on 31 August is the ninth full moon of the year, not the tenth in three months (which is impossible).

Edit: Ok, I've just downloaded the episode. At the end, after Lennier has got the scrolls from the archives, Delenn's dialogue is: "Valen, who created the Grey Council, defeated the Shadows, a Minbari not born of Minbari, we know was Jeffrey Sinclair, a human who became Minbari, genetically altered by the triluminary he received from Epsilon III."

Now, interestingly, Delenn only mentions one triluminary and we know there were more triluminaries than that, so there's room there for theories. But the triluminary that Sinclair took into the past definitely came from Epsilon III. Presumably it is the same one that Delenn used for her chrysalis, in which case that would mean that Delenn has it now.

Click to expand...

In Atonement, which I just rewatched after many years, there is a second Triluminary shown. It’s in the hilt of Dukhat’s staff. Somewhere, it is said that there are three Triluminaries (not Atonement). Three is a very important number to the Minbari. Also in Atonement, Dukhat says the Triluminaries (plural) came from a thousand years in the past. So Zathras had all three when he went to B4.

TheFirstOne said:

In Atonement, which I just rewatched after many years, there is a second Triluminary shown. It’s in the hilt of Dukhat’s staff. Somewhere, it is said that there are three Triluminaries (not Atonement). Three is a very important number to the Minbari. Also in Atonement, Dukhat says the Triluminaries (plural) came from a thousand years in the past. So Zathras had all three when he went to B4.

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This has quite likely been found before here but the confirmation that there are three Triluminaries is from Babylon Squared. I saw something interesting that might not have been noticed before though. When the staff is shown in Babylon Squared, it has a full triangle, as it should. However, when the staff (I’m assuming it’s the same one) is held by Dukhat at an earlier time (not in this episode), the Triluminary is incomplete. The bottom section appears to be missing. ?

OMG! All of that discussion in a matter of a couple of days and then BAM it is over until you all make Looney read it all and chime-in?!!!!!!! ...... Well I'm not going to chime-in because all of that catch-up reading made my head hurt so I shall not answer all of your question with the definitive answer that only I know because I read JMS' mind. Sorry... not gonna do it.... ????????

If there were three at some point, and Sinclair/Valen only takes one, then the other two would hopefully still be around after WWE and have less complex backstories. But looking at Back to the Future as an alternate example, at one point there were three Delorians present on the same Time Looping Day in 1955: Original needs-a-lightning-bolt, flying version, and the one buried in the cave.