• The new B5TV.COM is here. We've replaced our 16 year old software with flashy new XenForo install. Registration is open again. Password resets will work again. More info here.

The Shortened Season 4

D

**DONOTDELETE**

Guest
Hey guys,

I know this issue has been beaten to a pulp for nearly a decade now, but because I never had watched the full 4th season until now, and of course the question of “how much of Season 4 was condensed” pops into my braincase. Based on comments from JMS at the Lurker’s Guide, we know that

A. Intersections in Real Time was supposed to be the episode that originally ended Season 4. JMS then says that four episodes would have been pulled forward to the next season. Considering that he wrote this message thinking that there would be no Season 5 and that all of the episodes had already been finished, I’m almost positive that he’s including Sleeping in Light. Thus, it was originally planned that Season 5 would start off with Between Darkness and Light, Endgame, and Rising Star and end, as it currently does, with Sleeping in Light.

B. That JMS originally envisioned Into the Fire as a two-parter.

C. That most of the condensing occurred in the first part of the season.

D. That the current final episode of Season 4, The Deconstruction of Falling Stars, was written to replace Sleeping in Light after Babylon 5 had been renewed for a fifth and final season. Otherwise, it never would have existed.

So, that would leave three other stories, which were either condensed or were broken down to their arc-sensitive parts, which were then inserted to other stories.

Sound about right?
 
Sounds right, but you know what, I don't think it mattered. I was thinking about that just today as I finished watching Season 4 all the way through. Actually, I started a few weeks ago with Season 1 and built up to Season 4 just as the set was being released, so I have the whole run going right now. Yea, Season 4 was "shortened" but I have to ask, does it matter?

Into the Fire was a good episode, but I don't think it needed to be 2 parts really. I dont know how much stretching it out would gain us in story.

The Earth conflict also seemed to have a good pace. Right after the shadow war ended, Clark gets rattled because his allies headed for the hills and he was left alone, so he turned his eye to B5. First it was PSI-Corp planning to make them look bad. Then it was the news with propoganda, which continued. Then B5 decides to counter the propoganda. When that happens Clark starts clamping down on shipments to B5 and the colonies, and eventually it reaches the point where he killed more civilians. At this point the B5 crew starts their campaign. Sure, visually we might have seen more of it, but STORY wise I don't think we missed anything.

If ANYTHING would have benefitted from a "stretched" Season 4 if you will, it is the following:

1) I felt the Minbari crisis happened pretty suddenly and ended just as suddenly. Sure it was building, but was never really something that you heard about until it was there. Ill grant you the Minbari are a quiet and private people, and they even destroyed a beacon near Minbar to keep a low profile, so I do suppose this fits, and thus is a minor point.

2) Garibaldi's turning against Sheridan happened a little quickly for me --- even knowing he was under some influence. I think this would have been done a bit better if they had been able to stretch things a bit more episode wise.

3) Season 5 would have benefitted a bit as some of the early episodes were a bit off and it took a while for S5 to build.

But all in all, I really don't think it matters to us, the viewers, that it turned out as it did. Things seemed to flow rather well even if it was shorter than JMS had intended. Maybe this was one of those things that he had planned to last longer than it SHOULD have and we lucked out by how things worked out. Even the S4 Finale "filler" Deconstruction, while not having anything to do with the Seasonal arcs, really gave us a chance to see the grand impact of our characters and the story.

I think things worked out pretty well, perhaps better than were initially intended.
 
A. Intersections in Real Time was supposed to be the episode that originally ended Season 4. Thus, it was originally planned that Season 5 would start off with Between Darkness and Light, Endgame, and Rising Star and end, as it currently does, with Sleeping in Light.
Yeah, that sounds about right.

B. That JMS originally envisioned Into the Fire as a two-parter.
I don't know that this would have been the case. I mean, I know it is a major turning point in the arc but I don't see where it would make sense to add that much more material to it.


C. That most of the condensing occurred in the first part of the season.
I'm not sure about that. Some of it: probably; most of it: I don't think so. In fact, if I was to guess I would only add about one more episode to the pre-"Into the Fire" part of the season.

I remember that A View From The Gallery was originally envisioned as taking place during an attack by Clarke's forces and not with some never-seen-before-or-since alien. That is one full episode.

I also have always said that, had JMS known that S5 would happen, it made *much* more sense for Byron to come for asylum during the period between the end of the Shadow War (and therefore when Sheridan & Co. are no longer looking to use telepaths in warships) and the end of the Earth Civil War (and therefore before B5 has what amounts to an extradition treaty with Earth). This would have allowed Byron's plot thread to flow naturally into the tapestry of B5 and not feel so much like it started up, played out, and ended, all in a vacuum relative to the rest of the B5 story. I think that there is probably two episodes of material there, even if it was spread out over several episodes while the rest of the Earth & Minbari civil wars also played out.


D. That the current final episode of Season 4, The Deconstruction of Falling Stars, was written to replace Sleeping in Light after Babylon 5 had been renewed for a fifth and final season. Otherwise, it never would have existed.
Maybe, maybe not. It *might* have been made as a stand-alone S5 episode. We'll never know.
 
Well, everything in that list was based off of posts by JMS. He said that Into the Fire was supposed to be a two-parter originally; in response to complaints about "Endgame" being rushed (?), he said that most of the cuts prior to the last few episodes; and that Deconstruction was written after Season 5 was a reality and the Season 4 needed to end with something other than Sleeping in Light. Considering its structure and content, I can't see it being used in Season 5 anywhere but after Sleeping in Light, one which JMS always intended to end the show.

In my own opinion, Into the Fire could have better as a two-parter. While I agree that nothing story-wise is missing, the pacing of the episode is terribly off and it hurts some of the drama involved. This was the acculumation of the Shadow War, which was the centerpiece of the series. My guess is that Part I would have been the buildup to battle and more fighting, climaxing with the destruction of the Vorlon planet-destroyer and the Shadow cloud overtaking the fleet. The second part would have been more along the lines of Comes the Inquisitor.

As is, the episode is still very strong thanks to its story, but it loses something of the series grand scale by fitting everything into one episode.

As for Byron....I'm not sure how his plot thread would have entered Season 4; if I remember right, his presence on B5 was a result of Sheridan becoming president and his guilt over the decision to use the Shadow-enhanced telepaths.
 
As for Byron....I'm not sure how his plot thread would have entered Season 4; if I remember right, his presence on B5 was a result of Sheridan becoming president and his guilt over the decision to use the Shadow-enhanced telepaths.
To permit a telepath colony on Babylon 5 Sheridan only needs to be Captain. After the Shadow War Sheridan may have wanted to reward the telepaths, permitting a colony is one way of doing this.

During the early part of the Shadow Way, possibly immediately after "Walkabout", Sheridan would be planning on recruiting telepaths. A colony would be a good recruitment ground. Such an action would leave a pacifist like Byron feeling cheated, betrayed and wanting revenge.
 
Well, everything in that list was based off of posts by JMS. He said that Into the Fire was supposed to be a two-parter originally

Are you sure? I could have sworn I read somewhere that Into the Fire was always meant to be just one episode.

I could be misunderstanding or remembering wrong. Maybe I read that the resolution to the Shadow War was always meant to happen in one episode, but maybe some of the battle leading up to the solution was what was meant to be split off into its own episode, forming a two-parter.


I think the disadvantage to the way things worked out between S4 & S5, is that S5 felt a little a fluffy (especially the telepath arc) compared to other seasons with some of the meat already delivered in S4. On the other hand, the advantage is that S4 ended better, as I don't like the episode Intersections in Real Time and would not have liked that to be the cliff-hanger.

I also agreed with what someone else said, the Minbari conflict was rushed. The Shadow threat lasted whole seasons with all-out war being a half a season of its own. The build up toward the Earth Civil War had been going since S1 with all-out conflict taking much of S4.

However, the Minbari conflict was only about an episode or two, wasn't it? Usually, problems on homeworlds have a way of filtering through to Babylon 5, but if I'm remembering correctly, the Minbari conflict seemed fairly isolated to just the homeworld. No riots on B5, no space battles, no effects on other races, just city-trashing.

Still effective, but the Minbari conflict is the thing that could have been expanded most had S5 been assured. There again, it could have seemed too coincidental to have civil wars on both Earth and Minbar at the same time, so maybe one of them needed downplaying afterall.
 
Well, everything in that list was based off of posts by JMS. He said that Into the Fire was supposed to be a two-parter originally

Are you sure? I could have sworn I read somewhere that Into the Fire was always meant to be just one episode.

I could be misunderstanding or remembering wrong. Maybe I read that the resolution to the Shadow War was always meant to happen in one episode, but maybe some of the battle leading up to the solution was what was meant to be split off into its own episode, forming a two-parter.

SPOILER FOR THOSE WHO HAVEN'T SEEN THE FOURTH SEASON

Actually, I misunderstood JMS's post. What he said was this:

"Are you happy with having to hurry season four along in case the show isn't renewed?
Truth: I go back and forth. The "Into the Fire" thing, for instance... it would've likely been a two-part episode, but it still would've ended up exactly where it ended up. A few more big explosions, but I wonder also if that really adds anything past a certain point."

Problem is, JMS really doesn't outline a whole lot; he simply sits down and writes it. Although he knows where the overall story is going, he allows the characters to "live" their way through the story naturally. For instance, his original plan was to have Londo kill the emperor, but when he sat down to actually write the story, he realized that Vir was the one who should do it.

Thus, JMS thinks he probably would have written Into the Fire as two-parter, but nothing was actually planned. That was my misunderstanding.


I think the disadvantage to the way things worked out between S4 & S5, is that S5 felt a little a fluffy (especially the telepath arc) compared to other seasons with some of the meat already delivered in S4. On the other hand, the advantage is that S4 ended better, as I don't like the episode Intersections in Real Time and would not have liked that to be the cliff-hanger.

Personally, I think Intersections would have made an interesting cliffhanger, ending the season on a dramatic and quiet episode, and leaving a sense of hopelessness for Sheridan. It would have been different from previous seasons, but that doesn't mean it would have been bad.

Also, I think JMS used the first couple of episodes to introduce new viewers to the show (thanks to the series' move to TNT, the ratings for the fifth season went through the roof. I was one of those new viewers). He was able to do this because the original three opening episodes actually ended Season 4. I think if Season 5 started with those, Season 5 wouldn't been seen as somewhat "fluffy." The transition from war (since the Earth Civil War was caused by the Shadow War) into the founding of the Alliance would have felt more natural to viewers.

I also agreed with what someone else said, the Minbari conflict was rushed. The Shadow threat lasted whole seasons with all-out war being a half a season of its own. The build up toward the Earth Civil War had been going since S1 with all-out conflict taking much of S4.

However, the Minbari conflict was only about an episode or two, wasn't it? Usually, problems on homeworlds have a way of filtering through to Babylon 5, but if I'm remembering correctly, the Minbari conflict seemed fairly isolated to just the homeworld. No riots on B5, no space battles, no effects on other races, just city-trashing.

Still effective, but the Minbari conflict is the thing that could have been expanded most had S5 been assured. There again, it could have seemed too coincidental to have civil wars on both Earth and Minbar at the same time, so maybe one of them needed downplaying afterall.

I doubt JMS would have expanded the Minbari conflict anymore than it is. First, it goes against the nature of the Minbari to telecast the rift between their castes, so no riots on B5 or space battles in open space. Second, the conflict seemed to occur mostly on homeworld, where their culture is centered. Finally, I agree that the centerpiece of the second half was the Earth Civil War, and that JMS probably underplayed the Minbari war for that reason, especially since the Minbari caste tensions were never a major part of the series arc. Plus, the whole point of that story arc was more emotional than grand battles and war, which is the same reason why JMS made the climax of the Shadow War different from the climax of the Earth Civil War.
 
However, the Minbari conflict was only about an episode or two, wasn't it? Usually, problems on homeworlds have a way of filtering through to Babylon 5, but if I'm remembering correctly, the Minbari conflict seemed fairly isolated to just the homeworld. No riots on B5, no space battles, no effects on other races, just city-trashing.
I think I was the one who posted this, and it was just how it FELT to me, but I also mentioned that I guess it can be explained rather well.

The conflict HAD been building since the Earth-Minbari war. We saw signs of it in Season 1 of tensions between Warrior and Religious castes. It got worse when the Warrior caste had 4 on the council. However the Minbari are sworn not to kill any of their own kind, and are a much more highly developed race, so I wouldnt expect to see them fighting like Green vs Purple. ;) I think the breaking of the Council in Mid Season 3 is where things started to lose control and began to get worse. I would think the best reason for it not "filtering" back to the station is that the Minbari are a HIGHLY private race. Remember Londo's quote from In the Begining? "The Minbari keep to themselves, dont bother them, they wont bother you" They destroyed a Hyperspace relay beacon so people WOUDLNT know what was happening. So I guess it boils down to the Minbari conflict had been building since the Earth-Minbari war and we did see signs of it through the entire series, but as far as the B5 folks were concerned, they never saw it coming because the Minbari --- even Delenn --- never let them see it. It was a very private civil war.
 
He said that Into the Fire was supposed to be a two-parter originally
I haven't seen that particular (that I can remember). It could well be. Whether it would have been better that way is a matter of subjective speculation.

in response to complaints about "Endgame" being rushed (?), he said that most of the cuts prior to the last few episodes;
OK, "prior to last few episodes" I can see. When you said "first part of the season" I had interpreted that as meaning prior to Into the Fire. I actually think that majority of the additions would have been in the middle half (second and third quarters) of the season. That is consistent with "prior to the last few episodes".


Considering its structure and content, I can't see it being used in Season 5 anywhere but after Sleeping in Light, one which JMS always intended to end the show.
Clearly, SiL was always to be the series finale.
When I consider the structure and content, it seems to me that it could be slipped in *anywhere* after the formation of the IA. If they were going to make it somewhere in the middle of S5 some of the details of the dialog would definitely be different because they wouldn't be putting in purposely vague teasers about event that were to happen during S5.

I don't know that they *would* have made DoFS. I'm just saying that they still *could* have, and that in the absense of specific statements from JMS we don't definitively know whether they would have.


As for Byron....I'm not sure how his plot thread would have entered Season 4; if I remember right, his presence on B5 was a result of Sheridan becoming president and his guilt over the decision to use the Shadow-enhanced telepaths.
The guilt over the modified telepaths is not a necessary condition for Sheridan granting them asylum. Even as it stands, he makes note of the fact that he still (post IA formation) doesn't trust Psi Corps and that it could be handy to have a group of telepaths on their side. This would most definitely still apply during the period that B5 is independent.

Actually, the way that it is ended up in the show is the way that doesn't make any sense. By the beginning of S5 the IA has already been formed, B5 is in the IA, and the IA (as one of its founding principals) has agreed to abide by and respect each members laws with respect to their own citizens. There is absolutely no reason for Byron to think that coming to B5 would shield him from EA law. There is abosolutely no reason (given the agreements already in place for the IA) for Sheridan to think allowing the establishment of their colony on B5 won't create a big problem with the EA and Psi Corps, and soon, because the conradictions between the IA agreements and his agreement with Byron.

However, during the period when B5 is maintaining independence (and is actually quarantined from Earth) it does make perfect sense for Byron to see the station as a place where he and his followers could be shielded from EA law. Similarly, at that point it would actually make sense for Sheridan to see that asylum as something that he could grant. Then Byron & Co. would just be around, becoming part of the community in the audiance's mind. They would probably help with one or two situations along the way, but wouldn't really be central to much story arc at all in S4.

Then, it would be believable that the contradictions between the colonies existance and the IA "respect member's laws" agreement could come up naturally, with that particular implication of the IA agreement slipping through the cracks at first. The bulk of the telepath arc would still take place during S5. However, because Byron's colony would have been part of the landscape for much longer, it wouldn't feel like a complete side track from the B5 story, unconnected to the rest of the story threads (which is why I think that section so irritated so many of the fans).
 
Actually, the way that it is ended up in the show is the way that doesn't make any sense. By the beginning of S5 the IA has already been formed, B5 is in the IA, and the IA (as one of its founding principals) has agreed to abide by and respect each members laws with respect to their own citizens. There is absolutely no reason for Byron to think that coming to B5 would shield him from EA law. There is abosolutely no reason (given the agreements already in place for the IA) for Sheridan to think allowing the establishment of their colony on B5 won't create a big problem with the EA and Psi Corps, and soon, because the conradictions between the IA agreements and his agreement with Byron.

I agree with all your points except this one.

1. Babylon 5 is not a part of the IA. If I remember correctly, Babylon 5 was returned to the EA, which is why Lockley is an EA officer commanding the station.

2. That said, Babylon 5 is still a free port and neutral territory.

3. B5 is also the temporary capital of the new IA. In the agreement between the EA and the IA, the EA would control station operations, while the IA had juristiction over all political matters.

Byron approaches Sheridan because (a) his past actions in protecting the underground railroad from the Psi Corps, (b) the new IA is possibly the only organization that could overrule Psi Corps, and (c) Babylon 5's new and somewhat unclarified status, given that any decisions that affect the Alliance on Babylon 5 are IA juristiction. Thus, asking sanctuary from the IA on Babylon 5--a political decision--is legal.

Having Byron show up during Babylon 5's independence would not make as much sense, because Byron was looking for a somewhat permanent haven for rogue telepaths. Sheridan had made it crystal clear that Babylon 5 would return to the EA once Clarke was removed from office, and Sheridan also had told Franklin that the underground railroad couldn't stay on B5 while they were still with Earth.

Was Sheridan's decision a correct one? That's what much of Season 5 is about. Ever since coming back from Z'ha'dum, Sheridan has been making many more hard and somewhat rash decisions based on pure morality. In a political situation, that kind of decision could bring darker consequences.
 
A few things:

The telepaths could easily have been gathering towards the end of season four without declaring a colony. The telepaths could have filled up air time by being B story material, which it seems more fitting.

The impression I always got was that it was going to be Ivonova who would give the teeps asylum. She was supposed to open up to Byron before becoming disillusioned with the mook. This would have made more sense since it really is more of a station decision concerning giving space despite it not being politically convenient.

The telepath arc would have been much more interesting if..oh....I don't know..perhaps if it had been the culmination of a certain character's arc we've seen in bits and pieces since season one.

Ending the season with Sheridan being tortured would have been fantastic. Just the sort thing that made the show different.
 
The impression I always got was that it was going to be Ivonova who would give the teeps asylum. She was supposed to open up to Byron before becoming disillusioned with the mook. This would have made more sense since it really is more of a station decision concerning giving space despite it not being politically convenient.

I still find myself wishing that Claudia Christian had stayed because I would love to have seen the heavy emotional conent when Ivanova had to call in Bester and the Bloodhounds when Byron and his people holed themselves up and refused to come out.
 
Not exactly on the topic of telepaths, but since Ivanova's leaving is being mentioned...

JMS finally admitted on the DVD Season 4 Summary that if he had known that Claudia Christian wasn't going to return for Season 5, he *might* have re-thought the decision to do what he did to Marcus.

It took me a while to figure it out, but one day a few years ago, I finally realized that that's why Season 5 felt so different. Not only was it different in theme and tone, but it was also missing two very likable, strong, and frequently humorous characters, one of which had been there since S1. Losing one character would have been the nature of the B5 story arc, but losing two at the same time was a heavy hit.
 
Agreed. I started noticing that more, since I have watched the first 4 seasons in a run in the last month. Im not sure missing Marcus is as big of a blow since he only arrived Season 3. He was a great character and all, dont get me wrong, but I sat there thinking, after Deconstruction, "wow, no more Ivanova next season" and for the first time, it felt really odd.
 
Not exactly on the topic of telepaths, but since Ivanova's leaving is being mentioned...

JMS finally admitted on the DVD Season 4 Summary that if he had known that Claudia Christian wasn't going to return for Season 5, he *might* have re-thought the decision to do what he did to Marcus.

I'm not sure what you mean by admit, since JMS has been open with the fact that Claudia's last-minute departure from the show upset a lot of stuff he was going to do with Ivanova in Season 5. And all that stuff started with Marcus' death. Apparently, he even toyed with the idea that Marcus would be a major part of Crusade.

It only makes sense that he would rethink what to do with Marcus if he knew that Ivanova wouldn't be around to work through the after effects of Cole's sacrifice. Heck, he might have even switched the fates of the two characters. Instead, he lost one character through the storyline and another character through circumstances that he had little control, and as fate would have it, both characters' arcs were joined at the hip. Fun.

Personally, I think Ivanova's absense from Season 5 did more to hurt that season than a condensed Season 4. Although JMS still told the story he wanted to, it was told with a different character that I don't think had the same amount of emotional impact that Ivanova would have had. Plus, people would have understood Ivanova's attraction to Byron more than Lyta's attraction to him, since he was written to be a bit like Marcus.
 
It was a situation that had to be dealt with and JMS came through. I agree that not having Ivanova in s5 was disappointing as I really enjoyed the character but it allowed JMS to try something else.
For instance, I don't know what happened to Talia Winters or why she was written out but I was quite happy to have Lyta back. AS well as Sheridon didn't grow on me until well into S2, having prefered Sinclair at that point.
JMS had to roll with the punches and we, as the fans, are expected to do the same. :D
 
especially since the Minbari caste tensions were never a major part of the series arc.

Er, were we watching the same show?

The tension between the castes were part of the series from the first season, shown most explictly in "Legacies" where Delenn goes against the Warrior Caste. Later, we find that the Relgious Caste gave the order that ended the Earth-Mimbari War and that the decision infuriated the Warrior Caste so much that some of them went into exile. And then the Religous Caste building the White Stars and the decision to make Delenn head of the Rangers only made the conflict worse. We just didn't see much of it because the Shadow War came to the forefront around the time and there wasn't that much time for anything else.

JMS puts things in an episode for a reason, he never throws things out there that don't lead anywhere. The few that did go nowhere were due to actors leaving the series or to avoid a copyright lawsuit.
 
There is also one important story line which was canceled in the 4th season: Drakhs!
They appeared in 4x07 Epiphanies - Regent had a keeper.
In 4x10 Rising Mars Capt. Jack had a keeper - my question is: WHY? What did intend JMS with the Mars Rebelion and Drakhs? Were there more Humans with keepers even in EarthForce.
In 4x11 Lines of Communication Delenn fought with Drakhs.
And suddenly. Nothing. They have disappeared!
 
I know that, but why they were introduced in the middle of the season 4 and they disappeared from the episodes for one year. I think JMS planned more Drakhs in the season 4.
 

Latest posts

Members online

No members online now.
Back
Top