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Galactica Season 4 (Spoilers Within)
- Thread starter Alluveal
- Start date
Recoil
Regular
I came in here to say exactly this. In fact, I had already decided to post my recap of this episode:
Exposition
Exposition
Exposition
I really wish there would have been a better, and smoother way, to reveal all of those details and pieces of history. But they did a big grand dump because of a random bullet and conversations with the Final Cylon. It all felt so forced and rushed. Hell they even sped through some of the explanations so fast I really dont think I caught it all.
Biggest reveal for me in this episode though? "PC" from the Apple/Mac commercials is apparently a brain surgeon.
GKarsEye
Regular
John Hodgman!
The guy's main gig is as a dry comedic writer. His big TV break came when he promoted his first book on The Daily Show, leading to regular appearances as one of their fake "experts." Shortly after he got the Apple gig, but his Daily Show appearances are always great.
How many episodes left, about half a dozen or so? Yeah the way they're doing the exposition is rushed but at least they're doing it, I guess... still, kinda makes you wish they'd have spent the last couple of years showing it instead.
vacantlook
Super Moderator
That was my immediate, out-loud reaction to seeing his character.
He was just on The Daily Show either last night or night before last, I can't remember which.
vacantlook
Super Moderator
Kind of like Baltar's been seeing a hallucinatory Six?
Which kind of thematically jives/reflects with the whole existence of the "Twelve Colonies" and then the "extra one" that is Earth.
I remember before they started talking about a "final five" that earlier in the show -- I don't remember if it was when Baltar was seeing the Opera House at the end of season one or when exactly -- but I remember there being six of the long white drapes hanging. The long white drapes ended up being repeated elsewhere too. I remember thinking that it was odd for it be six drapes since later there's been all this talk of the "final five", I thought they would've only had five drapes to represent the five. I guess the extra drape could've represented Daniel.
Have we ever been told Starbuck's father's name? He was an artist too, wasn't he? I remember Starbuck and Helo listening to records of music that her father composed. Maybe Starbuck is the daughter of a copy of Daniel.
I think it was more of what Ellen herself said to Cavil: he wanted her to admit he's right to believe that being a machine is superior to her view that being human is.
It certainly gives a greater weight and meaning behind all of Cavil's actions regarding D'Anna and his dislike of Leoben, Natalie, and Sharon's interest in the Final Five.
Well, Ellen did say that she thought John was jealous of her affection for Daniel. As for the equipment being on Earth, unless you're referencing something else, I thought Cavil said that there was still equipment on "the colony", as in the location that the Centurions all went to at the end of the war with the Twelve Colonies where the Five proceeded to build the human-model cylons.
I hope Sam's not gone.
Me too, especially because he's pretty. :devil:
Galahad
Regular
Even if the planet at the time of the civil war was entirely cylon populated, it's still possible that they merely returned to a planet that the humans had originally abandoned a long time before, when founding the colonies.
Alluveal
Regular
You are correct. I heard this last night on my 2nd run. It could be that Earth is "the colony" but the more I think about it, the more likely it is that this colony is another place entirely.
Galahad, I think it was humans. When Tigh was talking, he said, "we five made the 8 models. It starts with us."
Then Tori said, "but humans made the first cylons." At least, that's what I remember. So. Humans were there. So so much. Been keeping en eye on other boards to see how much of this I can get all straight.
Too much exposition, I agree with that. So much was a "device." And I hope that Sam has not been turned into a mere vehicle for information only to pass on.
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Alluveal
Regular
Transcript of Anders talking to the others (verbatim - snatched from another message board)
"We all worked in the same research facility. You and Ellen, you were married then too."
"You two lived together...You were madly in love, you were planning on getting married."
"On a ship that we placed in orbit around the planet."
"We didn't invent resurrection, OK. We re-invented it."
"Organic memory transfer came from Kobol along with the thirteenth tribe. It fell out of use after our people started to procreate. We worked night and day to rebuild it."
"Galen, your work was amazing...But it was Ellen. It was Ellen who made the intuitive leap that brought the system back online."
"We needed to find the other tribes and warn them. We knew they would continue to create artificial life. We need to tell them, treat them well and keep em close. But by the time we got to the colonies, they were already at war with the centurions. It happened again."
"We hadn't developed jump drives. We traveled at relativistic, but subluminal speed. Time slowed down for us, but thousands of years had passed."
"The centurions were already trying to make flesh bodies. They had created the hybrids, but nothing that lived on its own, so we made them deal: you stop the war and we'll help you."
"We developed the eight humanoid models and we gave them resurrection."
"John, we treasured him. He helped us build the others."
"The centurions had a single loving God. Ellen said it changed everything. If the Cylons embraced love and mercy, then the cycle of violence could end."
"Cavil rejected mercy. He had a twisted idea of morality, so he turned on the five of us. He trapped us in a, uh, thing, uh pocket, it was a compartment. And then he took the O2 offline."
"He blocked our access to our books, no, our memories."
"I guessed he boxed us for a while. Introduced Saul first, not long after the war. And then the gazelle, duh, the, the Ellen."
"Back on Earth, the warning signs that we got. It looked different to each one of us. I saw a woman. Tory, you saw a man."
"Funny, no one, no one else could see them."
"Seven, seven, seven was the Daniel."
"He died. Daniel died. He was seven."
"We all worked in the same research facility. You and Ellen, you were married then too."
"You two lived together...You were madly in love, you were planning on getting married."
"On a ship that we placed in orbit around the planet."
"We didn't invent resurrection, OK. We re-invented it."
"Organic memory transfer came from Kobol along with the thirteenth tribe. It fell out of use after our people started to procreate. We worked night and day to rebuild it."
"Galen, your work was amazing...But it was Ellen. It was Ellen who made the intuitive leap that brought the system back online."
"We needed to find the other tribes and warn them. We knew they would continue to create artificial life. We need to tell them, treat them well and keep em close. But by the time we got to the colonies, they were already at war with the centurions. It happened again."
"We hadn't developed jump drives. We traveled at relativistic, but subluminal speed. Time slowed down for us, but thousands of years had passed."
"The centurions were already trying to make flesh bodies. They had created the hybrids, but nothing that lived on its own, so we made them deal: you stop the war and we'll help you."
"We developed the eight humanoid models and we gave them resurrection."
"John, we treasured him. He helped us build the others."
"The centurions had a single loving God. Ellen said it changed everything. If the Cylons embraced love and mercy, then the cycle of violence could end."
"Cavil rejected mercy. He had a twisted idea of morality, so he turned on the five of us. He trapped us in a, uh, thing, uh pocket, it was a compartment. And then he took the O2 offline."
"He blocked our access to our books, no, our memories."
"I guessed he boxed us for a while. Introduced Saul first, not long after the war. And then the gazelle, duh, the, the Ellen."
"Back on Earth, the warning signs that we got. It looked different to each one of us. I saw a woman. Tory, you saw a man."
"Funny, no one, no one else could see them."
"Seven, seven, seven was the Daniel."
"He died. Daniel died. He was seven."
Truth_Seeker
Regular
Great analysis, Alluveal.
Well... this episode was very confusing. I'm not sure I understood the right chronology
of the "All of this has happened before..." cycle.
1.First, humans on Kobol created the original Centurions,whose bodies were later found on Earth. Let's call them Centurions A.
2.Then Centurions A annihilated their creators and left for Earth, where they evolved to skinjobs (the Final Five).
3.Centurions A probably rebelled and there was a civil war between them and the Final Five. The war persuaded the skinjobs that the whole cycle of annihilation is wrong.
4.The Final Five decided to leave for the Twelve Colonies and warn them not to create cylons. Unfortunately, they were too late so their only option was to make a deal with the new Centurion models (let's call them Centurions B).
5.Ellen and the others gave Centurions B the technology to create skinjobs and to resurrect them. In return, Centurions B promised not to destroy mankind. Cavil was created.
6.Cavil killed the Final Five, resurrected them and replaced their memories with false ones. Then he sent them to live among humans in the Twelve Colonies.
7.Cavil created the other seven models, using the knowledge of the Final five. Then he boxed №7, because he/she was flawed.
8.The new skinjobs violated the agreement with the Final Five and attacked the Twelve Colonies, leading to the events in the Mini-Series.
Five more episodes and there are still a lot of mysteries to be revealed.
Well... this episode was very confusing. I'm not sure I understood the right chronology
of the "All of this has happened before..." cycle.
1.First, humans on Kobol created the original Centurions,whose bodies were later found on Earth. Let's call them Centurions A.
2.Then Centurions A annihilated their creators and left for Earth, where they evolved to skinjobs (the Final Five).
3.Centurions A probably rebelled and there was a civil war between them and the Final Five. The war persuaded the skinjobs that the whole cycle of annihilation is wrong.
4.The Final Five decided to leave for the Twelve Colonies and warn them not to create cylons. Unfortunately, they were too late so their only option was to make a deal with the new Centurion models (let's call them Centurions B).
5.Ellen and the others gave Centurions B the technology to create skinjobs and to resurrect them. In return, Centurions B promised not to destroy mankind. Cavil was created.
6.Cavil killed the Final Five, resurrected them and replaced their memories with false ones. Then he sent them to live among humans in the Twelve Colonies.
7.Cavil created the other seven models, using the knowledge of the Final five. Then he boxed №7, because he/she was flawed.
8.The new skinjobs violated the agreement with the Final Five and attacked the Twelve Colonies, leading to the events in the Mini-Series.
Five more episodes and there are still a lot of mysteries to be revealed.
Alluveal
Regular
Here is where it gets confusing. I think that the 12 left to create the 12 colonies. Probably wanting to leave that kind of technology behind.
Humans were inhabiting Earth. I think humans and cylons went there to settle the 13th colony. Very much as the rag-tag group of humans and cylons were trying to find Earth.
I think you're right. Somewhere, it's mentioned that there was civil war on Earth. This implies one faction splintering into two. That leads me to believe cylon VS cylon. Humans got caught in the middle. But, this is still unclear to me.
Ya know what this reminds me of? The death of Chronos by his children, the imprisonment of the Titans (if we're talking Greek mythology.) Just a side thought there.
I think the new series Caprica will deal with much of this--how the humans started playing with AI again, trying to recreate what they'd left behind on Kobol.
This also urges me to believe that they will all return to Kobol, where it all began. It was there that the 13 tribes lived as one--all came together. Probably swore they would never build AI again when they left. It has all happened before . . . will all happen again . . .
At the behest of Cavil. I think he was the leader in this all, the instigator. Maybe it will all come together. It just seems to much to make sense of. Haha.
Alluveal
Regular
Ok, sorry to overwhelm peeps with too much, but here is what I've summarized (holes included.)
Mankind began on Kobol. All 13 tribes. They created Cylon centurions. The first skinjobs came along with that: Tigh, Ellen, Tyrol, Anders, Tori.
War, rebellion.
The 12 left to find their own planets and settled the 12 colonies.
The rest went to settle Earth.
Earth creates cylons again, or brings the technology with them. The five are warned (Anders states that they each saw someone that was trying to warn them: "Back on Earth, the warning signs that we got. It looked different to each one of us. I saw a woman. Tory, you saw a man.")
Earth destroys itself. The Five are resurrected in a ship that's orbiting Earth and head back to tell the 12 colonies not to frack with AI.
Sam: "We needed to find the other tribes and warn them. We knew they would continue to create artificial life. We need to tell them, treat them well and keep em close. But by the time we got to the colonies, they were already at war with the centurions. It happened again. We hadn't developed jump drives. We traveled at relativistic, but subluminal speed. Time slowed down for us, but thousands of years had passed."
They get there too late. The Centurions had been recreated and war had happened. The Centurions tried to create more organic bodies (skinjobs) and were failing. They had produced a few hybrids and little else. The Five convinced them to stop the war (Ellen brought up the One True God to "tame them" so to say,) and they left to find a "homeworld" of their own. I think this is "The Colony" that Cavill speaks of where Ellen has her resurrection equipment.
While the cylons were gone (during those 40 years,) the Five taught them how to make skinjobs. Cavil was the first. He was created in the image of Ellen's "father." Perhaps that means the human scientist who helped create her, or another kind of father. This is uncertain.
Cavil convinced the others to rebel against the Five--had them boxed, then resurrected into the human population, without their memories.
Cavil must have done something to remove the memory of the five from the memories of the other models. Six tells Baltar at one point that they were not allowed to speak of the five, or think of them. That a rebellion occurred. They once had to know what the five looked like and who they were, but lost that ability.
Cavil brought the cylons back 40 years later and decimated the 12 colonies. I imagine it's because he was pissed off at humans because he disliked being one himself.
D'anna started to uncover the truth of who the other five were, much like children uncovering a secret they are not supposed to know. Some of the other models (Six, Eight, Leoben's model) became very interested in this as well. Thus, D'Anna was a threat to Cavil and she had to be boxed.
And here we are.
Thoughts
Now, I think Starbuck is either Daniel resurrected into woman form, OR, as you said, she is the daughter of Daniel and a human (Starbuck's mother.) I'm convinced that she is one or the other.
Cavil knew about the final five all along. He kept that information from the others somehow. Not sure how. That would need to be explained. It's why he had D'Anna boxed. She found out and she was a threat to his plans. She was also making the other cylons interested in the final five. Remember, they were not "allowed" to talk about the final five or to think about them. Six told Baltar this. Perhaps he had programming changed or such.
As to Starbuck's resurrection. If they can resurrect a raider, they can resurrect a viper. Starbuck was caught up in one of the resurrection machines at some point. Where it is, it's difficult to say. Perhaps Kobol. Not sure. It's a hole that needs to be filled in, that's for sure.
I think that while on Earth, cylons could procreate and they mixed with humans so much that most became hybrids of some kind. Perhaps humans really are a form of cylon in some way or another. Hard to say.
Mankind began on Kobol. All 13 tribes. They created Cylon centurions. The first skinjobs came along with that: Tigh, Ellen, Tyrol, Anders, Tori.
War, rebellion.
The 12 left to find their own planets and settled the 12 colonies.
The rest went to settle Earth.
Earth creates cylons again, or brings the technology with them. The five are warned (Anders states that they each saw someone that was trying to warn them: "Back on Earth, the warning signs that we got. It looked different to each one of us. I saw a woman. Tory, you saw a man.")
Earth destroys itself. The Five are resurrected in a ship that's orbiting Earth and head back to tell the 12 colonies not to frack with AI.
Sam: "We needed to find the other tribes and warn them. We knew they would continue to create artificial life. We need to tell them, treat them well and keep em close. But by the time we got to the colonies, they were already at war with the centurions. It happened again. We hadn't developed jump drives. We traveled at relativistic, but subluminal speed. Time slowed down for us, but thousands of years had passed."
They get there too late. The Centurions had been recreated and war had happened. The Centurions tried to create more organic bodies (skinjobs) and were failing. They had produced a few hybrids and little else. The Five convinced them to stop the war (Ellen brought up the One True God to "tame them" so to say,) and they left to find a "homeworld" of their own. I think this is "The Colony" that Cavill speaks of where Ellen has her resurrection equipment.
While the cylons were gone (during those 40 years,) the Five taught them how to make skinjobs. Cavil was the first. He was created in the image of Ellen's "father." Perhaps that means the human scientist who helped create her, or another kind of father. This is uncertain.
Cavil convinced the others to rebel against the Five--had them boxed, then resurrected into the human population, without their memories.
Cavil must have done something to remove the memory of the five from the memories of the other models. Six tells Baltar at one point that they were not allowed to speak of the five, or think of them. That a rebellion occurred. They once had to know what the five looked like and who they were, but lost that ability.
Cavil brought the cylons back 40 years later and decimated the 12 colonies. I imagine it's because he was pissed off at humans because he disliked being one himself.
D'anna started to uncover the truth of who the other five were, much like children uncovering a secret they are not supposed to know. Some of the other models (Six, Eight, Leoben's model) became very interested in this as well. Thus, D'Anna was a threat to Cavil and she had to be boxed.
And here we are.
Thoughts
Now, I think Starbuck is either Daniel resurrected into woman form, OR, as you said, she is the daughter of Daniel and a human (Starbuck's mother.) I'm convinced that she is one or the other.
Cavil knew about the final five all along. He kept that information from the others somehow. Not sure how. That would need to be explained. It's why he had D'Anna boxed. She found out and she was a threat to his plans. She was also making the other cylons interested in the final five. Remember, they were not "allowed" to talk about the final five or to think about them. Six told Baltar this. Perhaps he had programming changed or such.
As to Starbuck's resurrection. If they can resurrect a raider, they can resurrect a viper. Starbuck was caught up in one of the resurrection machines at some point. Where it is, it's difficult to say. Perhaps Kobol. Not sure. It's a hole that needs to be filled in, that's for sure.
I think that while on Earth, cylons could procreate and they mixed with humans so much that most became hybrids of some kind. Perhaps humans really are a form of cylon in some way or another. Hard to say.
Recoil
Regular
The Cavil / Covering up the 5 / Attacking Colonies / Boxing the 3 model / etc all actually makes pretty good sense to me and flows pretty well when you put it all together. It makes sense. He was the first model line build by Ellen, so he knows more than all the others and kept them in the dark after he hid the 5.
What is REALLY foggy is the whole Kobol/Earth thing.
They said Cylons on earth could reproduce on their own. So did Earth start as just humans, they made cylons, then skinjobs and that those could reproduce so they were really like people? Or did the 5 cylon models go with the humans to Earth? Again odd thing is that the five seem to be individual UNITS not MODEL LINES, so not sure how that all fits in. It seems clear that humans and at least the 5 UNITS lived on Earth together...but what more was there than that I dont know.
Then the Five escaping the destruction of Earth with their newly rediscovered resurrection technology and traveling at sublight speeds to warn the colonies makes sense. Its everything before that, I dont think they covered too well in all the exposition....
What is REALLY foggy is the whole Kobol/Earth thing.
They said Cylons on earth could reproduce on their own. So did Earth start as just humans, they made cylons, then skinjobs and that those could reproduce so they were really like people? Or did the 5 cylon models go with the humans to Earth? Again odd thing is that the five seem to be individual UNITS not MODEL LINES, so not sure how that all fits in. It seems clear that humans and at least the 5 UNITS lived on Earth together...but what more was there than that I dont know.
Then the Five escaping the destruction of Earth with their newly rediscovered resurrection technology and traveling at sublight speeds to warn the colonies makes sense. Its everything before that, I dont think they covered too well in all the exposition....
Garovorkin
Regular
Im not convinced that Kobol is the orgin point. But then again ive missed the mark on alot things here.
vacantlook
Super Moderator
The characters in the story seem to believe that Kobol is the birthplace of humanity, but I've been expecting it to be revealed that Earth was the actual birthplace and the characters just didn't realize it (until it gets revealed). But who knows, maybe they really are going to have Kobol be the birthplace within the story world. Provided that I understand it correctly, the characters say/believe that Kobol is the birthplace of humanity and that it was from there that the founding members of the Twelve Colonies and Earth (as the legendary 13th Colony) set out.
darth_librarian
Regular
So the 13th colony was founded by the original cylons ... Makes sort of sense. In a 'script writer ate so much ret-con he needed to take an exposition dump' kinda way.
Bester
Regular
It's possible that the mysterious 13th cylon is Starbuck's dad, making her a hybrid. This may explain how she was also able to come back from the dead. At the time her viper exploded she was somehow transported to Earth, where she died and was resurrected (having cylon DNA) by the same means as the Final 5. But this doesn't explain where her band-spanking-new viper came from.
It was said that the 13th cylon's name was Daniel. Was this skinjob based on Daniel Graystone (the inventor of the cylons on Caprica)? Would make a nice link to the spin-off series ('Caprica').
It was said that the 13th cylon's name was Daniel. Was this skinjob based on Daniel Graystone (the inventor of the cylons on Caprica)? Would make a nice link to the spin-off series ('Caprica').
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Alluveal
Regular
They could (at one point) resurrect a raider. Why not a viper?
