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Old December 9th 06, 20:01   #31
Chilli
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Re: Who Destroyed Babylon 1, 2, & 3?

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The location of Babylon 4 was chosen nearly 1,000 years before it was built. I suspect that there was a Minbari telepath in room when the humans "thought" of the location.
This gets you into the kind of logical paradoxes you'll generally get once time travel is involved in a story. I doubt a Minbari telepath would have been involved, as someone had to decide the location at *some* point.

That is .. if Babylon 4 traveled through time only, and not through time and space. Something that never was adressed IIRC.

IF JMS thought it all through - the DVD audio commentaries kind of suggest that he didn't really consider it too important - Babylon 4 must too have been somewhere in the inner Epsilon Eridani system, as it took starfuries 3 hours to get there, through normal space. We don't know how fast starfuries can get, but I doubt it's much faster than 1/10th the speed of light - an estimated limit of the speed that a ship with ion engines could reach. Which means that it would have to be somewhere within about 18 lightminutes of B5, at the given time. 18 lightminutes is twice the distance between Earth and the sun - not a very large distance, in astronomical terms.

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It is explicitly stated in ItB that the Minbari are by-passing civilian colonies and attacking only military forces and bases on their drive for Earth. EarthForce theorizes that they plan to exterminate the defenseless colonies on their way back to Minbar, after the Human military forces have all been destroyed. Nobody was driven from any colonies.
It's also directly adressed in season 2 - Franklin tells G'Kar about the Minbari military approach when noticing that the Centauri's approach is resembling it quite closly - that the Centauri were just shooting right by the Narn colonies, heading straight for their homeworld.
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Old December 9th 06, 20:23   #32
Joseph DeMartino
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Re: Who Destroyed Babylon 1, 2, & 3?

I'm having trouble finding the post, but JMS has said that only B4 was far enough long in construciton to be identifiable as the station that went back in time, and that's the reason the Shadow's servants tried to blow it up. They would have ignored the first three stations just as they ignored B5, becasue destroying them would not have rescued them from defeat in the previous Shadow War. Once that shortcut to victory was off the table they had to find a more conventional way to win the war of the 2260s.

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Old December 9th 06, 20:37   #33
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Re: Who Destroyed Babylon 1, 2, & 3?

However, it's still possible the Shadows were involved in the destruction of 1-3: not because of anything having to do with the previous war, but simply because their general goal- sowing discord- is contradictory to the goal of the Babylon project- peace.
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Old December 9th 06, 20:47   #34
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Re: Who Destroyed Babylon 1, 2, & 3?

And it is possible that leaves turn color in the fall beause millions of elves hand paint then. You can't prove that isn't the case. (If you say you planted hidden camera in my orchard and they've never detected an elf, I'll just explain that my magical elves can't be photographed. ) However, you can say that it isn't damned likely. Ditto the Shadows and the first three stations given JMS's repeated statements that no, they were destroyed by Humans who objected to the proejct and the fact that when he wrote a line to that effect in a script, he ultimately cut it before the episode was filmed.

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Old December 9th 06, 20:52   #35
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Re: Who Destroyed Babylon 1, 2, & 3?

I think it might be stretching things to think that the Shadows had a hand in all the misfortune that befell the Babylon stations.

Just wondering.

Babylon-5 is supposed to be "the last of the Babylon stations".

Why?

Apparently, B-5 was a tremendous success both in peace and wartime to say nothing of diplomatically and even commercially.

The B-5 station itself only outlived its usefullness because the Interstellar Alliance was no longer headquartered there.

Wouldn't it make sense to build other large space stations in more accessible regions.

Or does the "last of the Babylon stations" mean something along the lines of "Babylon-5 was so famous and legendary, that we simply retired the name Babylon and named future stations something else".?
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Old December 9th 06, 21:30   #36
Joseph DeMartino
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Re: Who Destroyed Babylon 1, 2, & 3?

Apparently, B-5 was a tremendous success both in peace and wartime to say nothing of diplomatically and even commercially.

B5 was a commericially marginal endeavor that was never 100% self-supporting. It depended on subsidies from Earth for its first three years, and almost certainly received aid from the Minbari after it broke away from Earth. It failed in its primary mission of preventing war through diplomacy, its role in the Shadow War was largely unknown or misrepresented on Earth, and its role in both the Civil War and the Telepath Crisis made it controversial at best and an embarrassment at worst to EarthGov. That the Earth station was briefly taken over by an Alliance headed by a former "traitor" and which was overshadowing Earth's former leading position vis a vis the League and other alien races didn't sit well with a lot of people on Earth or in EarthGov, either.

Wouldn't it make sense to build other large space stations in more accessible regions.

Babylon 5 was neither the first nor the last "large space station", I'm sure. I'll bet Earth buit them, and I'm sure various alien governments did. What made B5 uniques was not that it was a big space station, it was its mission.

Or does the "last of the Babylon stations" mean something along the lines of "Babylon-5 was so famous and legendary, that we simply retired the name Babylon and named future stations something else"?

No, "the last of the Babylon Staions" means it was the last of the stations built as part of the Human's Babylon project with the mission of promoting peace among the species. Again, it is not the name or the size that defines the place, it is the mission. When the mission was over, there could be and were no more Babylon stations. (And besides, JMS wanted to foreclose the possibility of anybody ever doing a Babylon 6.)

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Old December 20th 06, 13:46   #37
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Re: Who Destroyed Babylon 1, 2, & 3?

Are their any good screen captures or images.......or better yet schematics for Babylon-4 anywhere?
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Old January 9th 07, 03:01   #38
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Re: Who Destroyed Babylon 1, 2, & 3?

By the way, why did the Minbari agree to help fund the Babylon-5 station after apparently having little interest in the first four?

It would seem to me that the Minbari would've had good information from the last Shadow War about the Babylon-4 station that ultimately became their base which made the difference against the Shadows.

Given that the first Babylon station was obviously eventually going to look like Babylon-4 shouldn't the Minbari have been eager to support building a station they knew would ultimately be used by them?
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Old January 9th 07, 03:18   #39
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Re: Who Destroyed Babylon 1, 2, & 3?

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Originally Posted by Dayton3
It would seem to me that the Minbari would've had good information from the last Shadow War about the Babylon-4 station that ultimately became their base which made the difference against the Shadows.

Given that the first Babylon station was obviously eventually going to look like Babylon-4 shouldn't the Minbari have been eager to support building a station they knew would ultimately be used by them?
Except the modern day Minbari apparently didn't know what B4 looked like (and I doubt the Minbari of 1000 years ago refered to the B4 as Babylon 4, so name identification is out) going by Delenn's exposition in "War Without End Part 1": the video record of B4 she showed was given to her by Draal shortly before they left B5, recorded by the Great Machine. I would think that she, being of the Grey Council, would have known of B4 before then, but her reaction seemed to me to be an indication that she didn't know that the station Valen gave to the Minbari was B4 until she viewed the Draal-acquired video record right before leaving B5 for the mission.

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Old January 9th 07, 04:19   #40
Joseph DeMartino
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Re: Who Destroyed Babylon 1, 2, & 3?

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By the way, why did the Minbari agree to help fund the Babylon-5 station after apparently having little interest in the first four?
Because they weren't asked to contribute to the first four. Earth did not solicit alien funding for the first four attempts to build in the station - in part because none of them before Babylon 4 came anywhere close to being completed - and therefore relatively little of the money and material budgeted for the station was actually expended before the station was destroyed.

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It would seem to me that the Minbari would've had good information from the last Shadow War about the Babylon-4 station that ultimately became their base which made the difference against the Shadows.
As noted, the Minbari had very little information from the last war. (The Minbari are fond of central-planning and have an almost Soviet tendency to build One Big Facility. They did this with their records facility for the most recent Shadow War - which was destroyed very late in the conflict.) Combine that with the fact that none of they were not involved in the Babylon Project until after Babylon 4 vanished, it is hardly surprising that the Minbari did not connect the Babylon Project with Valen's station until Delenn's arrival. (She says in "WWE" that she had seen images of Valen's station and that she recognized the siimilarties in the designs when she took up her post on B5 - which she had never see before, even in pictures. But neither she nor anyone else had any idea what it all meant, even when her research proved that Valen's station was, indeed, Babylon 4. She knew it had something to do with prophecy and Valen's war, but until she received Sinclair's 900 year old letter and the recording from Draal, she didn't have anything like the full picture.)

Regards,

Joe
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