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Old August 22nd 17, 19:25   #11
KoshFan
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Re: Read Between The Episodes

I don't remember ever getting an in-universe explanation about why Takashima left. As to what would have happened to her -- that we already know, via Word of JMS. He pointed out that there were many clues pointing to Takashima as a member of the internal conspiracy that led to President Clarke. So she would not have stayed long past Season 1, I think, after shooting Garibaldi in the back. Then Ivanova would have come on as her replacement.

Kyle and Lyta were definitely reassigned because of their contact with Kosh, though.


As to B1 through B3, I think the canonical explanation from JMS was that most of the funding was left over because construction never got far on any of those. All they really had to replace were the I-beams, etc. Babylon 4 got all the remaining money. Then when B4 mysteriously vanished, B5 was built on a much tighter budget, was never really finished, and needed a ton of Minbari funding even still.

As to how people were convinced to keep building them... I used to find that a little hard to believe, but then my hometown decided to replace a highway viaduct with a tunnel in just about the worst possible place, with less functionality than the viaduct it was replacing, and persisted when the bigger-than-ever-before-and-therefore-untested tunnel borer got stuck for over a year after digging just five hundred yards of tunnel. Why? Because contracts had been signed and powerful construction interests have been committed to the project for a long time. So I suspect B1 through B4 were all built by the same contractor, who lobbied pretty hard for the right to finish the job.


In a (slightly) less cynical take, I've had a private theory about the Babylon Project for a long time. The first Babylon station was begun soon after the war, right after EarthForce had essentially been demolished. (They put almost everything they had into the Battle of the Line and almost nothing survived.) EarthForce needed time to build back up, but also the wiser folks probably saw that they needed allies. In other words, diplomacy was now crucial: unable to fight anyone, Earth was forced to talk. The Babylon Project was a way of doing that, plus a way of reminding the other races "Hey, we're still here!" So they'd keep rebuilding the sabotaged stations because they still needed that diplomatic cover.

By the time B4 was hijacked, however, EarthForce was back in action. The Omega-class destroyers were coming on-line and were probably more to the generals' taste. Sheridan and Agamemnon were out showing the flag, making themselves useful, and being pretty diplomatic, but they were also able to fight like hell if they had to. So the Babylon Project had outlived its military usefulness, just as it finally got a station built.

Note that my two theories are totally compatible, by the way.
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Old August 23rd 17, 18:18   #12
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Re: Read Between The Episodes

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So the Babylon Project had outlived its military usefulness, just as it finally got a station built..
I disagree with this part of your theory, but I also disagree with the logic that after the Interstellar Alliance was formed B5 became less and less necessary. HA! That seems utterly ludicrous, but I have always accepted it because it is JMS' story and that is the way he took it. I think time and again the show proved Babylon 5's military usefulness with episodes like GROPOS, S2E10 and others.
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Old August 24th 17, 00:06   #13
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Re: Read Between The Episodes

That's true enough -- and since that wasn't really what I was trying to say, I'd better clarify.

I meant that (in my personal theory) the Babylon Project was begun as the EA's one line of defense after the fleet was destroyed, but by the time B5 was finally finished, they had a fleet again. So what had begun as "Last Best Hope for Peace" was downgraded (in the minds of the Joint Chiefs and other EA bigwigs) to "forward outpost." Still useful but not crucial, which is why people were practically hinting that it should be abandoned. Whereas in the earlier stages of the project it was still seen as crucial, hence the willingness to keep putting time and money into it after all the sabotage.
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Old August 31st 17, 22:11   #14
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Re: Read Between The Episodes

Well I have been and will continue to be pretty busy until Wednesday when my nephew and his family have come and gone. Trying to find some time to re-watch both versions of The Gathering and take some notes. I already have a few things I want to say, but it would be better if things were fresh in my mind as it has been a few months since I watched either version.
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Old September 5th 17, 10:28   #15
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Re: Read Between The Episodes

Laurel Takashima, was a double agent with an implanted personality, working for the pro Earth Homeguard. It was her that allowed the Minbari assassin into Varner's quarters and erased logs of the transport tube failure. This was being done to disrupt relations with the Vorlons and the Earth Alliance, by framing Sinclair for the assassination attempt and isolating Earth. Working through third parties (Del Varner and the Narn, who saw an opportunity to use a situation to their advantage and forge closer ties with the Vorlons and the Minbari) Homeguard make a deal with the extremist elements in the Wind Swords clan of the Minbari Warrior Caste opposed to the Babylon Project. They would have made an uneasy ally for the Homeguard, but also a readymade scapegoat for their actions, framing the Minbari for the attempt on Kosh’s life, and to hide Laurel’s role.


Her implanted personality was consistent with Psi Corps having sleeper agents acting as their eyes and ears in important Earth Alliance positions, something Jason Ironheart first warned about in 2258. She was put through the sleeper program shortly after her arriving on Mars in 2251. As she worked her way up, reporting secretly back to Psi Corps on EarthForce activities and even getting recruited into the Homeguard to spy on them. When EarthForce investigated the incident, it’s likely that Psi Corps were able to influence the result getting Laurel reassigned to the Rim, keeping their agent out of harm’s way. With no sleeper agent within Babylon 5, they have Talia Winters reassigned to the station filling the vacancy for a commercial telepath.
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Old September 5th 17, 15:14   #16
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Re: Read Between The Episodes

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Laurel Takashima, was a double agent with an implanted personality, working for the pro Earth Homeguard. It was her that allowed the Minbari assassin into Varner's quarters and erased logs of the transport tube failure. This was being done to disrupt relations with the Vorlons and the Earth Alliance, by framing Sinclair for the assassination attempt and isolating Earth. Working through third parties (Del Varner and the Narn, who saw an opportunity to use a situation to their advantage and forge closer ties with the Vorlons and the Minbari) Homeguard make a deal with the extremist elements in the Wind Swords clan of the Minbari Warrior Caste opposed to the Babylon Project. They would have made an uneasy ally for the Homeguard, but also a readymade scapegoat for their actions, framing the Minbari for the attempt on Koshís life, and to hide Laurelís role.


Her implanted personality was consistent with Psi Corps having sleeper agents acting as their eyes and ears in important Earth Alliance positions, something Jason Ironheart first warned about in 2258. She was put through the sleeper program shortly after her arriving on Mars in 2251. As she worked her way up, reporting secretly back to Psi Corps on EarthForce activities and even getting recruited into the Homeguard to spy on them. When EarthForce investigated the incident, itís likely that Psi Corps were able to influence the result getting Laurel reassigned to the Rim, keeping their agent out of harmís way. With no sleeper agent within Babylon 5, they have Talia Winters reassigned to the station filling the vacancy for a commercial telepath.
I think I love you.


A topic I was thinking about discussing is how well it works when reading between the episodes to realize that when Laurel is describing meeting Sinclair on Mars that would have been the perfect time for her to have become a sleeper agent; a fact I only recently learned thanks to these B5 communities. It would have been so awesome to find this out directly in the show. So Laurel was reassigned to the Rim where she did what damage? Is there an answer to that somewhere or is that open material for some fan fiction?

b5historyman PLEASE check back here when you can. I LOVE to speculate, but I also l LOVE to find out the truth, if there is some truth and as long as I like what it says. LOL I figure with you, Jan, Marcus, and the host of other (Super-Fans, Mega-Fans, Ultimate-Fans, Fanatical-Fans, or whatever name we choose to call ourselves?) I will keep learning what I don't already know.
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Old September 5th 17, 15:59   #17
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Re: Read Between The Episodes

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I figure with you, Jan, Marcus, and the host of other (Super-Fans, Mega-Fans, Ultimate-Fans, Fanatical-Fans, or whatever name we choose to call ourselves?) I will keep learning what I don't already know.
This is the title I generally go by - 'awarded' by a fellow fan back in the Usenet days.

Her Most Serene Highness Empress Jan of the Babylonian Empire, Goddess of Eeps, Honored Denizen of rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5.moderated, Transcriber for the Great Maker, Engraver of the images of the faithful and the Great Maker, Archivist of the Sacred Scripts of the Babylon 5 Universe.

But hey, friends can just call me 'Your Worship'.
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Old September 5th 17, 21:36   #18
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Re: Read Between The Episodes



How about "H.M.S.H.E.J.O.T.B.E.G.O.E.H.D.O.R.A.S.T.B.5.M.T.F .T.G.M.E.O.T.I.O.T.F.A.T.G.M.A.O.T.S.S.O.T.B.5.U." for short Your Worship?!
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Old September 6th 17, 01:23   #19
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Re: Read Between The Episodes

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How about "H.M.S.H.E.J.O.T.B.E.G.O.E.H.D.O.R.A.S.T.B.5.M.T.F .T.G.M.E.O.T.I.O.T.F.A.T.G.M.A.O.T.S.S.O.T.B.5.U." for short Your Worship?!
NEVER! I refuse to have my illustrious self reduced to a nickname! You can just copy/paste like everybody else!

The *nerve* of some people...
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Old September 6th 17, 03:54   #20
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Re: Read Between The Episodes

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Originally Posted by b5historyman View Post
Laurel Takashima, was a double agent with an implanted personality, working for the pro Earth Homeguard. It was her that allowed the Minbari assassin into Varner's quarters and erased logs of the transport tube failure. This was being done to disrupt relations with the Vorlons and the Earth Alliance, by framing Sinclair for the assassination attempt and isolating Earth. Working through third parties (Del Varner and the Narn, who saw an opportunity to use a situation to their advantage and forge closer ties with the Vorlons and the Minbari) Homeguard make a deal with the extremist elements in the Wind Swords clan of the Minbari Warrior Caste opposed to the Babylon Project. They would have made an uneasy ally for the Homeguard, but also a readymade scapegoat for their actions, framing the Minbari for the attempt on Koshís life, and to hide Laurelís role.


Her implanted personality was consistent with Psi Corps having sleeper agents acting as their eyes and ears in important Earth Alliance positions, something Jason Ironheart first warned about in 2258. She was put through the sleeper program shortly after her arriving on Mars in 2251. As she worked her way up, reporting secretly back to Psi Corps on EarthForce activities and even getting recruited into the Homeguard to spy on them. When EarthForce investigated the incident, itís likely that Psi Corps were able to influence the result getting Laurel reassigned to the Rim, keeping their agent out of harmís way. With no sleeper agent within Babylon 5, they have Talia Winters reassigned to the station filling the vacancy for a commercial telepath.
She was probably reassigned to San Diego.
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