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View Poll Results: Objects At Rest
A -- Excellent 13 68.42%
B -- Good 6 31.58%
C -- Average 0 0%
D -- Poor 0 0%
F -- Failure 0 0%
Voters: 19. You may not vote on this poll

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Old May 11th 15, 10:38   #21
Jan
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Re: EpDis: Objects At Rest

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Originally Posted by Lennier's Tears View Post
I'm sort of surprised to see Boxie upthread say that the Sheridan/Lennier scene is what made the episode for them. I like to pretend it never happened We've been discussing it so much in the other threads, I have very little left to say about it, other than once again: It doesn't fit with the character. Not even if you consider Delenn's "explanation" about how there are moments when we are not ourselves. Another interesting thing we haven't yet discussed is how Delenn mentions that in Lennier's diary, he talked about how he think that Delenn's relationship with Sheridan is a mistake. This is .. odd. I get that he is jealous, but surely he can see that they are well suited to one another?
I think jealous isn't the word at this point. Obsessive would better describe it. Delusional is another good word. He tried to convince Marcus that his love was "higher, nobler" which was pure self-delusion. Then he joined the Rangers in order to be worthy of her and trained too hard. Look back at the script from 'The Very Long Night of Londo Mollari' when they discuss his leaving for the Rangers.

Quote:
I only wish to
add a few more. To become more of
what you might want me to be. More
of what you might find --
(attractive)
He feels their relationship is a mistake because he feels that he's the best one for her.

Jan
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Old May 11th 15, 16:56   #22
Mororless
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Re: EpDis: Objects At Rest

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Originally Posted by Lennier's Tears View Post
I'm sort of surprised to see Boxie upthread say that the Sheridan/Lennier scene is what made the episode for them. I like to pretend it never happened We've been discussing it so much in the other threads, I have very little left to say about it, other than once again: It doesn't fit with the character. Not even if you consider Delenn's "explanation" about how there are moments when we are not ourselves. .
As I said in the other thread I think the weakness of this is that it means the whole situation is less of a comment on the character. When the likes of Delenn, Londo, G'Kar, Ivanova, etc suffer some kind of "fall" a lot of the weight comes from the fact that there actions are very much in character.
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Old May 11th 15, 17:49   #23
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Re: EpDis: Objects At Rest

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan View Post

I think jealous isn't the word at this point. Obsessive would better describe it. Delusional is another good word. He tried to convince Marcus that his love was "higher, nobler" which was pure self-delusion. Then he joined the Rangers in order to be worthy of her and trained too hard. Look back at the script from 'The Very Long Night of Londo Mollari' when they discuss his leaving for the Rangers.

Quote:
I only wish to
add a few more. To become more of
what you might want me to be. More
of what you might find --
(attractive)
He feels their relationship is a mistake because he feels that he's the best one for her.

Jan
Yes, I think "obsessive" and "delusional" are accurate descriptions. I think there's still a world of difference between "maybe if I do this or this thing she'll like me" (and I thought that conversation was out of character, too. It'd be one thing for him to THINK that, to actually say it to her is another), and "I'm clearly the best possible partner for her". This is humble, self-effacing Lennier we're talking about. He's practically a kid, too. In his more rational moments, he must realize that it'll be several decades before he would have enough life experience to where he could be a kind of equal partner to Delenn. (And conveniently, she's going to be without a husband in a couple decades anyway ... He could have just waited!)

I feel that for him to be THIS out of touch with reality, he must be suffering from some mental illness that apparently no one picked up on. My other explanation, as I've mentioned elsewhere, is that he's going through some type of Minbari puberty that we're just never told about on the show.

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Originally Posted by Mororless View Post
As I said in the other thread I think the weakness of this is that it means the whole situation is less of a comment on the character. When the likes of Delenn, Londo, G'Kar, Ivanova, etc suffer some kind of "fall" a lot of the weight comes from the fact that there actions are very much in character.
Yes, I liked your comments in the other thread about how his "fall" could have happened more in character. I guess the problem is that with a character like his, it's hard to have any kind of fall. His only possible fault is that he might be TOO loyal, if there is such a thing. If he had gone against the Rangers to save Delenn , perhaps none of us would have considered that a failing at all ... Depending on circumstances, I guess.

I guess it was simply considered too boring to have a character who is nothing but humble and loyal to the end, and perhaps that is true, although it's not like there's an overabundance of them in the B5 universe. I might be retconning things in my memory because it's been almost 20 years but I think I always felt like something horrible was going to happen to Lennier. I definitely remember expecting that character to be killed off before the end, even before Morden's prophecy in Day of the Dead. You can't have a character like that without something horrible happening to them ... Turns it out it was something way worse than death. I suppose I can see why he'd be written that way, but I don't have to like it
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Old May 14th 15, 13:13   #24
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Re: EpDis: Objects At Rest

You look elsewhere though and B5 does have situations in which characters who by general standards appear very moral still have in character falls. The key I would say is that there fall tends to be one of self judgement which at the simplest level is what I would have changed with Lennier. Still wouldn't have been ideal but having him fail to rescue Sheridan but nobody else be aware of it and then leaving with a confession to Delenn would at least have had some of that aspect to it.
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Old May 14th 15, 18:18   #25
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Re: EpDis: Objects At Rest

Well, might as well jump on the "how Lennier's betrayal should have happened" train, too. I agree he should have been the only character aware of the betrayal. Maybe he should have had to run to an out-of-sight console to open the door, but instead just watches Sheridan on the monitor until someone else saves him or at least runs in forcing Lennier to press the button quickly as though he just brought up the correct screen. What if he then ends up lying to Delenn about what happened - how devastating would that be for a pious Minbari! So he leaves without telling anyone, with just a message to Delenn. No confession, other than telling her he now realizes he cares about her too much. He could admit he can no longer look up at her, bringing the "forever running into things" quote nicely full circle.
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Old May 14th 15, 19:36   #26
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Re: EpDis: Objects At Rest

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You look elsewhere though and B5 does have situations in which characters who by general standards appear very moral still have in character falls.
I'm kind of curious to see which ones you're thinking of, specifically. Regardless, I think I would agree.

All the major characters are good people with some flaws (Ok, some of them take a while to get around to being essentially good people). I felt that most of their flaws were sort of predictable. I don't mean that in a "bad writing" way, rather the opposite. The flaws fit the characters.

For example, it makes perfect sense for Sheridan to illegally keep Morden in custody. We can all see how Garibaldi starts drinking again. But for Lennier to suddenly do a selfish thing (and one that would have backfired anyway, as he must have known), it's way more shocking. I just can not fit that into my concept of "Lennier" at all.

The character with the most comparable personality would probably be Delenn, although it's hard to say because they're the only major Minbari characters on the show, and the only major Religious Caste characters. Their lives are all about service. Finding Delenn's flaws is actually not that easy, either. Most of the Minbari would probably consider her going against tradition a major flaw, but to our late 20th and early 21st century human eyes, that doesn't look like much of a flaw. She MIGHT, in a moment of weakness, choose love over duty. She never actually does that on the show, but it's sort of hinted at. And that is indeed exactly what we expected Lennier's big "fall" to be about.
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Old May 15th 15, 10:58   #27
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Re: EpDis: Objects At Rest

Delenn's flaw showed up before the show. In a moment of rage she started a genocidal war and then she let herself get swept up in the tide of events. The Delenn we met was learning to force events to her wishes.

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Old May 15th 15, 17:18   #28
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Re: EpDis: Objects At Rest

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Delenn's flaw showed up before the show. In a moment of rage she started a genocidal war and then she let herself get swept up in the tide of events. The Delenn we met was learning to force events to her wishes.

Jan
Ah yes, THAT minor detail
The "Delenn's was the deciding vote on the war with Earth" reveal is an interesting example in the discussion on Lennier's character. It's a reveal that comes along fairly late in the story and shows a side of Delenn we're not at all familiar with. You'd think that that might seem out of character, but it really doesn't. It's easy to see both how it happened, and how she got from "there" to "here".

At least, that's how I feel about that character.

As for her sort of manipulation of people and events leading up to the Shadow War, she truly believes that she is on the side of Light and that she is employing the best possible strategy to save the universe from total destruction. Of course lots of really terrible people do really terrible things believing they are doing the Right thing, so I don't say that as an excuse for her. I don't claim it's not a fault or a failing, just that it fits with her devotion to her cause. Also I guess I feel her "crimes" are fairly minor in the grand scheme of things. I don't think she can be blamed for what happened to Narn, for example.
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Old May 16th 15, 17:14   #29
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Re: EpDis: Objects At Rest

Even "good" people do things that could be considered bad. They do them because they believe they are necessary. Sometimes harm is done, or bad things can happen, but oftentimes that is the risk that these people take in order to achieve what they are trying to do.
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Old August 3rd 17, 23:07   #30
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Re: EpDis: Objects At Rest

Considering the lengths the series goes to to wrap up the arcs of all the characters, it seems odd how Lennier's fate is largely left unresolved. He runs away in shame. OK, but I need to know what happens to him next! Where does he go and what does he do there? From memory he doesn't play any significant role in the Del Rey trilogies, I might be right in thinking he isn't featured in them at all. I know JMS has revealed that he dies in the Telepath War but that detail is not revealed or foreshadowed in the series like the fates of many characters. This loose end is somewhat infuriating!
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