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View Poll Results: No Surrender, No Retreat
A -- Excellent 14 63.64%
B -- Good 6 27.27%
C -- Average 2 9.09%
D -- Poor 0 0%
F -- Failure 0 0%
Voters: 22. You may not vote on this poll

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Old March 12th 15, 00:42   #21
Lennier's Tears
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Re: EpDis: Rising Star

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Originally Posted by Mororless View Post
As time progresses though he seems more defined by the friendships he develops with the B5 crew and feelings for Ivanova to the extent its actually the latter than he does effective die for.
I could see that ...
In was thinking of that conversation the two of them have in Shadow Dancing:
Ivanova: "Well .. Who wants to live forever?" Marcus: "I do actually .. but what the hell" He SAYS that, but he's so burdened by guilt that he won't even participate in the Rebirth Ceremony to humor Delenn (Ceremonies of Light and Dark). Maybe if a closer relationship had developed between him and Ivanova, he could have gotten over his guilt and found something to live for. But it would no doubt have ended tragically in some other way


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With Ivanova she moves from still considering opening up to others earlier in the show to really being defined by loyality to Sheridan and the cause as things progress. You can see the effect on her is more extreme than anyone else bar Delenn when Sheridan goes missing presumed dead at the start of season 4 and its her pushing for the most extreme self sacfical tactics when he;s captured at the end of the season.
It's definitely true that she becomes more closed off to people and more devoted to duty/cause as time goes on. I get the impression she's always had that tendency but it's just gotten more pronounced as what little attempts at close personal relationships we see her make on the show end rather abruptly, and in one case extremely painfully. This on top of her family background.

I don't know if her loyalty to the cause and her loyalty to Sheridan are the same thing. That is to say, I feel she would have been on board with this cause no matter who was leading it, and if Sheridan had fallen before he became this sort of "personality", I could see Ivanova leading. Her concern for Sheridan seems to be more personal. He is one of the closest people to her. All her family members are dead, and she doesn't appear to have any kind of social life outside of work.

This is all very interesting! Clearly there are still lots of things I have never considered in the the 20 years since B5 came into being. I look forward to discovering more of them!
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Old March 12th 15, 09:29   #22
Mororless
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Re: EpDis: Rising Star

Its probably the most indepth I can remember discussing these characters as most of what I'v done in the past online has been around Sheridan, Delenn, Londo and G'kar.

Again I would say Babylon 5 exists in a strange kind of "inbetween" from the pulpier TV of years gone by and the more film like TV that exists today. It offers the same kind of depth of drama of the best modern TV but has one foot in the pulp style as well and actually works in a lot of its drama by deconstructing expectations of that style.

I did think of that line from Shadow Dancing as well which seems somewhat throwaway at the time but could actually be viewed as telling the story of the two characters.

As far as duty and personal attachment to Sheridan goes with Ivanova I would say its a mix of both. His friendship definitely seems to be her main support but equally I think following him gives her a clearer and simpler path in life. Not just in terms of duty vs fulfilling personal life but of the kind of duty and the kind of moral tests it offers.

To me it seems like a lot of the burden Sheridan takes up as he takes up a greater and gerater position of leadership is the burden not just of putting his own life at risk but of either ordering or having others make sacrifces on his behalf. Sending Macrus and Ivanova themselves on a 50/50 mission in Shadow dancing, sending the ranger crew to their deaths to draw the shadows into the conflict, having other Alliance ships take the hits from the shadow planet killer to save him, using the telepaths to disable the earth force fleet, etc.

Ivanova on the other hand never really does this, she sends others into risky situations but only when she shares the risk with them. She asks to be out where with the Star Fury pilots in the battle with earth force in Severed Dreams and demands to be in the final confrontation of the Shadow War. When she takes over from him in the Earthj civil war the first thing she does is take personal command of a very high risk mission. I'd say that obviously plays into not being able to take Marcus's sacrifice on her behalf and you could argue even that her taking the position of Ranger One in Sleeping in Light might offer redemption by taking up that kind of responsibility.
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Old March 12th 15, 13:35   #23
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Re: EpDis: Rising Star

Best part of the episode for me was when Delenn is speaking and the White Star Fleet flys over. It draws very definite parallels with the shadows flying over centauri prime. It seems to me to be a very deliberate parallel as well. Delenn then becomes very abrupt and to the point. The rangers will only come where they are welcome... Sounds familiar. A massive show of force, again much like the shadows over centauri prime. Of course Humanity does not have to join this alliance, but will be isolated if it doesn't. Good God Delenn, your husband to be is Human.
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Old March 13th 15, 11:41   #24
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Re: EpDis: Rising Star

I always skip this episode. Try going straight from 'Endgame' to 'Deconstruction of Fallen Stars' and you'll see what I mean. The formation of the alliance is implied while retaining an element of mystique about the whole thing. Some things are best left unshown.
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Old August 22nd 18, 18:37   #25
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Re: EpDis: Rising Star

-Is she stable?
-After a fashion...

Oh, Ivanova CC did that scene well. Tears, had to fetch a handkerchief.

And on to other emotions: Sheridan after the scene where Luchenko found out the identity of the other president.... I giggled. Sheridan totally earned the right to be a bit smug.

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Originally Posted by vorlonlovechild View Post
Best part of the episode for me was when Delenn is speaking and the White Star Fleet flys over. It draws very definite parallels with the shadows flying over centauri prime. It seems to me to be a very deliberate parallel as well. Delenn then becomes very abrupt and to the point. The rangers will only come where they are welcome... Sounds familiar. A massive show of force, again much like the shadows over centauri prime. Of course Humanity does not have to join this alliance, but will be isolated if it doesn't.
Oh. So THAT was what the scene reminded me of!
Delenn is so softspoken and diplomatic and yet there's steel in her voice underneath. Iron fist in velvet glove. You can join us - or not; however, note the incredibly powerful spaceforce we have, oh look, it just so happens it's doing a flyover as we speak! We're a power to be reckoned with, but join or not join, whatever........

I enjoyed Londo and G'Kar's newly found cooperation, and didn't even mind the Narn's peeping-tom tendencies. If he's only 99% great character, well I can live with that.

Luchenko was a very good character. Brisk, businesslike, absolutely no nonsense.

This episode feels like the last one of the season. What, there's still one more??! You can't have another episode after a closing speech like Delenn's "It was the end of the Earth year 2261, and it was the dawn of a new age, for all of us. It was the end of one chapter and the beginning of another. The next twenty years would see great changes, great joy, and great sorrow. The Telepath War, and the Drakh War. The new Alliance would waver, and crack, but in the end, it would hold. Because what is built endures, and what is loved endures. And Babylon 5 - Babylon 5 endures.".
The whole series could've ended here, and it would've been perfect. (I don't have fond memories of season 5... let's see how it feels this time around)
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Old August 31st 18, 11:57   #26
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Re: EpDis: Rising Star

Season 5 isn't actually that bad, it's just that it's a big step down from the heights of season 4.
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Old September 1st 18, 02:15   #27
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Re: EpDis: Rising Star

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Originally Posted by Karajorma View Post
Season 5 isn't actually that bad, it's just that it's a big step down from the heights of season 4.
Yes that is probably the best assessment. I think some people don't give Season 5 the credit it deserves because, quite frankly, Seasons 1-4 are a giant roller coaster. Season 1 you are starting out of the station and up the first big climb. Season 2 you are reaching the summit of the first big drop. Then starting down the other side and on through the whole ride of Seasons 3 & 4. Season 5 is meant to be a continuation, but it can't possibly match the action and build up of the other four seasons; ultimately becoming the slow down into the station at the end of the ride. If you could see Season 5 without having gone through the other Seasons you would realize how good it is. But the fact that so many of the major arcs seemed to reach there pinnacle at the end of Season 4 it becomes difficult to not hold Season 5 to an extremely high standard of "What could they possibly do to top Season 4?!" When you go into Season 5 looking through the lens of expecting it to go beyond the quality of Season 4 you set yourself up for disappointment.
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