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View Poll Results: Mind War
A -- Excellent 16 41.03%
B -- Good 16 41.03%
C -- Average 7 17.95%
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Old July 7th 08, 18:23   #81
Jan
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Re: EpDis: Deathwalker

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Originally Posted by snockit View Post
Think of looking at a abstract painting. If you didn't know the title or the description, you may interpret it different, where that is a valid way to appreciate art. It is how the art speaks to us, not necessarily how the the message was given from the artist.
I can understand that for a painting or sculpture but when it comes to a TV show if too much is open to interpretation, the writer has failed.

Anyway, with his "obvious retcon" line, Cell isn't interpretting the story, he's judging the writer.

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Old August 4th 09, 09:08   #82
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Re: EpDis: Deathwalker

I was thinking about this episode the other day and I came to a realization. Kosh gave the answer that the younger races were not ready for immortality but the need to kill in order to produce the serum would lead to war and chaos. Thus, even if the Shadows or their allies had nothing to do with the serum, the result would be the same. Perhaps it was due to the lack of Shadow involvement that the Vorlons were willing to intervene
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Old May 17th 10, 21:30   #83
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Re: EpDis: Deathwalker

I'm not sure if this sleeping dog should be wakened, but as I'm commenting on each episode as I watch it, I do want to add a few thoughts. The ethical questions raised here are excellent, and the moral issues for Sinclair and the others on B5 are very tricky. I agree with Ambassador Kalika that the Commander's compromise solution was "fair and wise", yet it doesn't end the story. I can't help but feel with the others that the Vorlon ending was a good solution - and of course none of the others had to shoulder the responsibility for it. Very convenient!

I chuckled over Londo's comment on Sinclair's attempt to keep quiet on the situation: "Great job!"

I also found it interesting that Abbut told Talia that it wasn't good to "reflect" too much, upon which the images of herself in multiple mirrors appeared in her mind. If that was from Kosh, he must have been able to project mentally without being present, since he'd already left the area. I did like the way what seemed to be a silly situation at the beginning (with dialogues of almost Monty Pythonesque disconnectedness!) became more threatening and ominous - perhaps a parallel to the other development, where the serum that seems positive becomes a horrible thing because of the way its made.

Excellent episode!
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Old May 18th 10, 03:38   #84
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Re: EpDis: Deathwalker

Kosh was no doubt a very powerful telepath (after all, we later see him use telekinesis). What I like is how Garibaldi's line -- "the Vorlons are leery of telepaths" -- throws us off the scent. Of course they're leery of teeps because a teep might pick up on their own activities, but on the first run we assume that they aren't telepaths themselves.
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Old May 18th 10, 18:22   #85
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Re: EpDis: Deathwalker

I think with the Talia conversation there may be a little of checking on how their "weapons" are progressing. Remember they seeded the telepaths after B4 went back 1000 years to be able to fight the Shadows in the current time, so they want to see if their "doomsday weapons" as Lyta later calls herself are useful for the coming battle.

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Old May 18th 10, 18:53   #86
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Re: EpDis: Deathwalker

Also this is after "Mind War." Kosh would have been aware of Ironheart's visit and probably picked up on his gift to Talia.
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Old May 21st 12, 09:43   #87
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Re: EpDis: Deathwalker

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Originally Posted by Lousy_Dodgers View Post
I was thinking about this episode the other day and I came to a realization. Kosh gave the answer that the younger races were not ready for immortality but the need to kill in order to produce the serum would lead to war and chaos. Thus, even if the Shadows or their allies had nothing to do with the serum, the result would be the same. Perhaps it was due to the lack of Shadow involvement that the Vorlons were willing to intervene
I took it as (we're) "not ready for immortality" because we would very likely seek it even if it meant killing for it. Not sure if Earth leadership, or the Narn or any other powers that may have been courting Jha'dur, knew that fact about the serum, yet--but once they did find that out, would that have stopped them--or any of the younger races--from proceeding with its use? I.e. I think Kosh said we were not ready for it, because we want it too badly, and would do unacceptable things for it that would defeat any noble purpose for having it to begin with. If we gain the sense of perspective that it isn't something we want that badly, then maybe we'd be a little more ready to have it (by whatever different and more benign means we develop to get it)--but there are also probably other factors that would make us still not ready....

But as for any angle with the Shadows, I too have wondered if there was some connection in the past between the Dilgar and Shadows. Some of the things Jha'dur says, like (not sure if exact quote) "it's the nature of the universe, that the superior control the inferior", practically scream Shadow doctrine, along with the whole "continuance of my work" thing. That they were such a power that it took many races banding together (that human-fostered "community") to subdue them, suggests that they may have been spacefaring during the last Shadow War... were they one of their allies in that war? It's a shame we don't know more about them, or this Dilgar War that obviously shaped a lot of recent galactic politics and Earth history. That the Dilgar rose and started "kicking anthills" before the Shadows reawakened would be a curious thing if they were in fact past affiliates; maybe the Dilgar were so arrogant as to think they could embark on galactic conquest without them, or that the Shadows would be most pleased when they came back and saw their initiative--or misinterpreted any "prophecy" they may have had about Shadow reappearance, and acted too soon in attempt to bring their "gods" back. Lots of possible speculation here.

Or maybe they were a race that simply developed that mentality without any First One coaching (although there was probably at least some behind-the-scenes cultural manipulations--both Vorlons and Shadows had those fingers in many pies). In lieu of any new TV productions, I wish the canon would continue to expand through books at least... and one of these should cover the Dilgar War and give some more insight into what that was all about and what motivated the Dilgar (not sure if there are any comics that cover this). Because that event, as so briefly described, seemed a pretty traumatic one to many of the peoples of the galaxy, and had to be significant in shaping more recent events. As it is, the Dilgar are treated too much as a one-off race for this episode (even if we only see the last one of their kind), given the scale and recentness of what they'd done to the galaxy. More historical reference to them and their war would be interesting.

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Old May 21st 12, 10:55   #88
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Re: EpDis: Deathwalker

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Originally Posted by snockit View Post
Think of looking at a abstract painting. If you didn't know the title or the description, you may interpret it different, where that is a valid way to appreciate art. It is how the art speaks to us, not necessarily how the the message was given from the artist.
Without any intention whatsoever to renew this debate, it's interesting how one of Kosh's lines from this very episode sort of ties into the issue of art interpretation: "a stroke of the brush doesn't guarantee art from the bristles." A very Vorlon quote--I take it to mean that art requires a deliberate intent and effort of the creator, that just throwing buckets of paint at a canvas doesn't make art even if something might be seen of the shapes it incidentally creates. Or something like that. A Vorlon, all about order and "correct" form, and the "who are you" of the artist, would probably interpret a lot of "modern art" as garbage....

I do think that how observers percieve the creation is a significant part of a work of art, but that creator's intent is also part of it. The harmony (or disharmony) between those views can prove very interesting, and can give the work sort of a life of its own--sort of like a child who carries part of their parentage with them, but also grows to be their own person. I think many good artists are as interested in how others will interpret their creation, as they are with what they themselves wanted to "say" with it. Some maybe even more so, maybe as a sort of "experiment".

A quibble with the terms used though: "retcon" is a word referring to a technical aspect of the work's process, not an interpretation of the work. Claiming something is a "retcon" is more analogous to claiming that someone used a specific type of brush (rather than another), than claiming the work itself means some thing. I.e. the creator (if he can remember what type of brush he used) is either lying or telling the truth when he claims he used brush x, or that he fudged a retcon rather than planned a possible trapdoor ahead of time--it would be a matter of fact (that perhaps only he knows, whether or not he's honest about it) rather than interpretation. But again, I don't wish to revive this argument that I wasn't even here for....

Last edited by Alioth; May 21st 12 at 11:20.
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Old May 22nd 12, 17:27   #89
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Re: EpDis: Deathwalker

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Originally Posted by Alioth View Post
As it is, the Dilgar are treated too much as a one-off race for this episode (even if we only see the last one of their kind), given the scale and recentness of what they'd done to the galaxy. More historical reference to them and their war would be interesting.
I think the discussions in "In the Beginning" imply that the Dilgar were a pretty small power that was easy to defeat but morally right to fight. It was one of the reasons there was the arrogance from the Earth government that they could take on the Minbari without a problem.
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Old May 22nd 12, 20:57   #90
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Re: EpDis: Deathwalker

An interesting episode, which raises many questions.

About the Dilgar sun going nova. I have no evidence for this. But what if the reason the Dilgar turned to conquest was because they knew that their sun was going nova? The Dilgar seemed to have been highly advanced technologically, and it is not beyond the bounds of possibility that they knew their sun was going to go. And the Dilgar, being an aggressive, war-like people, it probably would not occur to them to ask the League of Non-Aligned Worlds if they could move onto a vacant planet. And who would want them as neighbours anyway?
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