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View Poll Results: Mind War
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Old July 3rd 08, 18:08   #61
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Re: EpDis: Deathwalker

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Originally Posted by Jan View Post
So in other words, you have no actual reasons or evidence to offer for why you decided that JMS is a liar. <sarcasm> After all, none of the B5 characters ever had more than one story arc (not arch, btw), did they?</sarcasm>

Got it.

Jan
I provided reasoning, just because like usual you have your JMS blinders on and refuse to see anything that is even close to a slight against that man or at the very least accept that others have reasons for thinking the way they do isn't my problem.

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Originally Posted by hypatia View Post
Maneth has a point here that, unfortunately, got ignored in the resulting... well, "conversation" if you will.

Yes, Maneth, it is a bit of a shock to hear the resident Vorlon actually saying something clear, and not couched in mystery somehow. Perhaps he had no reason to make them reach for his meaning, or maybe Kosh just found the entire thing (the occurances in the episode) to be a waste of time and effort. His whole attitude seems to be "yea, I did it, it needed to be done, now get over it and get back to the relevant work".

Whatever the "reason", if there even is any, it was a surprisingly clear and straightforward response.
That added a lot of depth to Kosh. Instead of always being mysterious this is the first time we see the Vorlons being menacing because they have a reason to and we realize that they can do whatever they want and none of the B5 worlds can do a thing to stop them.
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Old July 3rd 08, 18:35   #62
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Re: EpDis: Deathwalker

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I provided reasoning, just because like usual you have your JMS blinders on and refuse to see anything that is even close to a slight against that man or at the very least accept that others have reasons for thinking the way they do isn't my problem.
Baloney. Trying to attack me isn't going to make your argument any stronger. JMS has admitted to too many instances where he feels that the storytelling was rough or weak for your 'reasoning' to hold water. You haven't presented any reasoning or evidence in support of your theory, just supposition.

Jan
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Old July 3rd 08, 20:55   #63
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Re: EpDis: Deathwalker

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Baloney. Trying to attack me isn't going to make your argument any stronger. JMS has admitted to too many instances where he feels that the storytelling was rough or weak for your 'reasoning' to hold water. You haven't presented any reasoning or evidence in support of your theory, just supposition.

Jan
I have presented plenty of reasoning, and as I have said it's an obvious retcon that is clear as day. I'm not the only one that feels this way so you just need to come to grip[s with the fact that others will not agree with your views on the matter. I know I have, I'm perfectly fine with people not taking my stance or believing my stance to be correct.

And I don't need to attack you, your posts speak for themselves, and not in a good way. This isn't fluffy happy land where every single thing a creator does is gold and you need to defend him at all times. Learn that some people are going to take issue with things that JMS did, the story etc., and you might be a tolerable poster. As it stands right now every time you post it's like I'm reading a presser for the "JMS is so great we should all worship him" club.
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Old July 5th 08, 22:30   #64
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Re: EpDis: Deathwalker

I'm sure that most here think Jan is somewhat more than a "tolerable poster."
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Old July 5th 08, 23:18   #65
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Re: EpDis: Deathwalker

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"JMS is so great we should all worship him" club.
I don't see the problem in that.In fact if JMS had chosen another profession none of us would be here talking about "Deathwalker".
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Old July 5th 08, 23:44   #66
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Re: EpDis: Deathwalker

My turn to thank you, Jade Jaguar.

Jan
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Old July 6th 08, 00:12   #67
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Re: EpDis: Deathwalker

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I'm sure that most here think Jan is somewhat more than a "tolerable poster."
That's fine, but I'm not them. If you like her posts that's fine, but I personally like insightful posts rather than quotes from JMS, or pressers from the President of his fan club.

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I don't see the problem in that.In fact if JMS had chosen another profession none of us would be here talking about "Deathwalker".
The problem isn't in looking at his works and acknowledging some of them as good or great, the problem lies in treating him or any other creator like they are a God incapable of any wrongdoing. For instance I consider Kurt Busiek the greatest comic writer ever, however I don't view him as infallible and I don't go around always challenging anyone that questions how good he is. He has written some stories that were subpar, and some stories that were average at best among his many great stories. That is my problem with the "we should all worship "so and so" attitude." Not only is it counter productive, but it's not realistic of the person's works at all.
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Old July 6th 08, 01:08   #68
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Re: EpDis: Deathwalker

I don't "worship him," and I don't "treat him like a god," nor do I think that is a common attitude around here, nor in evidence in this thread. You have no real evidence of a retcon, only an opinion. Strong and plentiful circumstantial evidence to the contrary has been presented, yet you deny it, on the basis that 'those who disagree (with you) idolize JMS,' an ad hominem argument.

I think most anyone here would readily agree with you, if they thought you were correct, regardless of their esteem for JMS. I know I would, and I believe Jan would. But your proofs, (or lack of same) are insufficient. You are entitled to your opinion. But, you are not entitled to certainty on a subject that can never be conclusively proven, until and unless we can actually read someone's mind.
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Old July 6th 08, 01:15   #69
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Re: EpDis: Deathwalker

Well put, JJ. I've heard many opinions voiced here, but few who felt their opinion must be accepted as fact, period, or you're just [fill in the blank]. This is, quite frankly, why I stopped having such unproductive dialogs.
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Old July 6th 08, 01:18   #70
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Re: EpDis: Deathwalker

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I don't "worship him," and I don't "treat him like a god," nor do I think that is a common attitude around here, nor in evidence in this thread. You have no real evidence of a retcon, only an opinion. Strong and plentiful circumstantial evidence to the contrary has been presented, yet you deny it, on the basis that 'those who disagree (with you) idolize JMS,' an ad hominem argument.
I presented more than just opinion, I presented evidence in a review before this one, as well as evidence in this thread. I haven't made the argument about people idolizing JMS about anyone other than Jan. I can't take her posts seriously or be bothered to care anymore about what she has to say because she comes across like a presser for JMS.

No evidence to the contrary has been presented, other than quoting what JMS said after the fact. Present actual evidence, and I would argue it, or change my mind were it good evidence.

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I think most anyone here would readily agree with you, if they thought you were correct, regardless of their esteem for JMS. I know I would, and I believe Jan would. But your proofs, (or lack of same) are insufficient. You are entitled to your opinion. But, you are not entitled to certainty on a subject that can never be conclusively proven, until and unless we can actually read someone's mind.
Like I said earlier, I don't care if anyone agrees with me. I don't post my thoughts to get people to agree with me, I post my thoughts because they are my thoughts and I feel like posting them. If people agree that's fine, if not it's all the same.

I will counter your last point though, because I hate the "oh, it's just my opinion" style of posting. When I post something I believe in what I am posting, and stating it as my opinion ad nauseum or using the "IMO' line only serves to cheapen it. Whether or not it can be conclusively proven doesn't matter to me, it is something I believe and I am going to post about it like I believe it to be the truth, otherwise you end up posting nothing but "Oh, it's only opinion" when everyone knows that anything having to do with an interpretive art or subjective art is all opinion anyways.

Edit: Oh, just as an addendum, since I have a low tolerance for a certain type of person and really can't stand Jan at all, I have put her on ignore so as to not have to further inflame the situation.
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