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View Poll Results: Mind War
A -- Excellent 16 41.03%
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C -- Average 7 17.95%
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Old July 1st 08, 05:44   #51
KoshFan
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Re: EpDis: Deathwalker

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I know all about that, but I don't buy it. The Talia as traitor was a retcon, that's the way it always came across to me. It wasn't a bad retcon mind you, but I do think JMS is being delusional by trying to claim that it was set up from the beginning, when by watching the series you can see it clearly wasn't. They were setting up for Talia to change, but not into another personality. All the mirrors and stuff like that was a nice way of setting up her eventual turn from the Corps and the life she knew to her new superpowered ways with the Vorlons. If JMS's explanation works for you that's cool, but to me it's an obvious retcon.
So JMS -- who was there, who wrote the dang thing -- says that he built it in early, and says that the mirrors were hinting at that all along. You, on the other hand, who did not write it... to you it "came across as a retcon." Therefore it was a retcon and the word of the show's creator is worthless -- indeed, he's delusional!

Hey, everyone, all this time we've been barking up the wrong tree. At last the final arbiter of truth in the B5 universe has arrived. JMS is nothing next to the almighty Cell! What new mysteries shall you reveal to us next, oh messiah?


Seriously, dude, if you go around acting as if you know better than the man who built B5, you're not gonna get much credence. (I have occasionally done exactly that -- and got very little respect for it.)
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Old July 1st 08, 09:53   #52
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Re: EpDis: Deathwalker

It's not a question of acting like you know better than the creator, and honestly that's a pathetic argument to fall back on. It's a question of calling bullshit when there is bullshit. The creative industry is full of creators, and JMS is no different, that lie and bullshit to try and make it seem like Point A was actually their original intention when it wasn't. Retconning is a very obvious thing when done hastily and a bit sloppy, and Talia is a perfect example of that. No creator is infallible, and trying to use the "Oh, you're not the creator, you weren't there" argument doesn't fly and is the height of pretentiousness.

As for respect, who gives a flying fuck what others think. I don't, never have and never will. I don't live my life or give my views hoping that others will give what I say credence, that's not the way for someone to live their life. If people want to read what I type then that's fine, but it's just as fine if they don't. However I don't have the time for people that aren't willing to question things that they see and just accept things as fact because someone said it's this way or that way. People questioning what I type is great because it means they are actually thinking critically, people accepting what a creator has to say carte blanch in a situation where it's highly dubious that he is telling the truth is not thinking critically. Unless of course you looked at the situation and decided there wasn't any retconning, then that's fine. You flexed your brain and came up with a different conclusion than I did, nothing wrong with that.
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Old July 1st 08, 11:20   #53
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Re: EpDis: Deathwalker

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It's not a question of acting like you know better than the creator, and honestly that's a pathetic argument to fall back on. It's a question of calling bullshit when there is bullshit. The creative industry is full of creators, and JMS is no different, that lie and bullshit to try and make it seem like Point A was actually their original intention when it wasn't. Retconning is a very obvious thing when done hastily and a bit sloppy, and Talia is a perfect example of that. No creator is infallible, and trying to use the "Oh, you're not the creator, you weren't there" argument doesn't fly and is the height of pretentiousness.
What exactly is your rationale for concluding that all of the scenes staged with Talia in mirrors was a set-up for her eventually leaving the Corps? Mirrors and reflections don't generally symbolize changes in people's lives but they're a nice symbol for something identical but opposite and for symbolizing something going on internally, in someone's mind. It's a symbol JMS has used repeatedly, such as when Bester used the mirror to try to get into Harris's mind in "The Corps is Mother, The Corps is Father" and when Garibaldi drew the face in the mirror "Epiphanies"

Exactly what *purpose* would be served by JMS lying about something like that? None. Your conclusion might make some sense if he were trying to convince people that he'd intended for "Divided Loyalties" to happen exactly when and how it actually did, but that's not the case, is it? He's never made any secret of the fact that real life sometimes intruded on the story so why do you insist that he's lying now? There would have to be some benefit he'd gain in order to do so and there's none.

Let me tell you what my basis is for trusting what JMS says. Over the years he'd often mention things that he'd write into the scripts, mostly nothing important, mostly just fun things. One could easily have forgiven him if he'd just added those little fillips for the sake of being entertaining, couldn't one? Then, several years down the line (long before the script books project) I actually got the scripts and found those little things that he'd mentioned. That and the fact that I read his posts for quite a number of years and never once caught him changing a story lead me to conclude that he's not given to lying.

So what is your basis for assuming JMS is lying besides the fact that you've concluded that creators lie? What's your basis for the conclusion that creators lie? I'm sure that some have in the past but you're painting with an awfully broad brush there. You seem to like others thinking critically so let's see your critical thinking that brought you to that conclusion.

Jan
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Old July 1st 08, 23:23   #54
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Re: EpDis: Deathwalker

Thank you, Jan.
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Old July 1st 08, 23:49   #55
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Re: EpDis: Deathwalker

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What exactly is your rationale for concluding that all of the scenes staged with Talia in mirrors was a set-up for her eventually leaving the Corps? Mirrors and reflections don't generally symbolize changes in people's lives but they're a nice symbol for something identical but opposite and for symbolizing something going on internally, in someone's mind. It's a symbol JMS has used repeatedly, such as when Bester used the mirror to try to get into Harris's mind in "The Corps is Mother, The Corps is Father" and when Garibaldi drew the face in the mirror "Epiphanies"

Exactly what *purpose* would be served by JMS lying about something like that? None. Your conclusion might make some sense if he were trying to convince people that he'd intended for "Divided Loyalties" to happen exactly when and how it actually did, but that's not the case, is it? He's never made any secret of the fact that real life sometimes intruded on the story so why do you insist that he's lying now? There would have to be some benefit he'd gain in order to do so and there's none.

Let me tell you what my basis is for trusting what JMS says. Over the years he'd often mention things that he'd write into the scripts, mostly nothing important, mostly just fun things. One could easily have forgiven him if he'd just added those little fillips for the sake of being entertaining, couldn't one? Then, several years down the line (long before the script books project) I actually got the scripts and found those little things that he'd mentioned. That and the fact that I read his posts for quite a number of years and never once caught him changing a story lead me to conclude that he's not given to lying.

So what is your basis for assuming JMS is lying besides the fact that you've concluded that creators lie? What's your basis for the conclusion that creators lie? I'm sure that some have in the past but you're painting with an awfully broad brush there. You seem to like others thinking critically so let's see your critical thinking that brought you to that conclusion.

Jan
Follow the story, that's all one need do to see that JMS retconned the entire ulterior personality. First, mirrors do represent internal change, like Talia struggling with her identity as loyal Corps member and wanting to leave the Corps as she becomes more and more enmeshed in their abhorrent, to her, ways. That was the purpose of the entire Ivanova relationship, the run-in with the runaways Teeps, Ironheart, etc.. All of that was designed to move Talia towards the path of independence, or at the very least to the Vorlons. There was never any hint of a secondary personality, not until after Divided Loyalties and until JMS started trying to explain away all of Talia on the show as having something to do with her secondary personality.

I''m simply saying that JMS' trying to say that he intended all along for Talia to have a secondary personality or that it was always there as a failsafe is a crock. Him saying otherwise is very transparent and it serves a perfect purpose for a writer. It gives him a get out free clause, although in this case it backfires. It says, "Oh, that Talia thing wasn't abrupt, I had it planned all along just in case, so see, it works." Despite that attempt, it doesn't work, it's still abrupt and forced. It works out in the end, but that is only because of the following Lyta storyline where she takes over what was originally Talia's story.

Therein lies the biggest reason why it's an obvious retcon, from the start JMS painted the story of Talia leaving the Corps, of the internal struggle within. Then Thompson decides to leave the show and her story changes. If JMS would have stuck with the fact that she simply left the show and they had to change things on the fly that would be fine. But instead he employed the classic writer retcon of going back and trying to explain away instances that had nothing at all to do with a secondary personality. What JMS did is the classic example of a retcon, it's no different than all the retconning that George Lucas has done over the years, or that Marvel did a few years ago with the Skrulls. To make his new story fit he changed the way he wanted us to perceive the original story. He thought that would help the new story, but in fact it wasn't needed at all. Talia's story ends up being a weak one either way because of her departure and it would have been better had JMS just left well enough alone and not tried to go back and rework everything to fit the secondary personality arch.
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Old July 1st 08, 23:59   #56
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Re: EpDis: Deathwalker

So in other words, you have no actual reasons or evidence to offer for why you decided that JMS is a liar. <sarcasm> After all, none of the B5 characters ever had more than one story arc (not arch, btw), did they?</sarcasm>

Got it.

Jan
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Old July 2nd 08, 03:51   #57
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Re: EpDis: Deathwalker

Moreover, JMS has admitted that Talia's departure was a bit abrupt, but that he handled it as best he could; moreover, JMS is on record as saying he had those trap doors ready for every character; moreover, when caught in similar mistakes JMS has always admitted it. Why, then, would he lie about this one, when far more egregious problems he has simply confessed to?

Your logic remains as follows: "It didn't feel right to me, therefore it's a retcon and JMS is a liar." You are therefore claiming that your emotions regarding the show trump all evidence to the contrary. I suppose we could accept that recons are in the eye of the beholder... but again, be aware that no rational person is going to agree with you on this.

This is a silly conversation...
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Old July 2nd 08, 04:07   #58
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Re: EpDis: Deathwalker

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What struck me most about this episode, aside from the awesome Deathwalker, was that Kosh spoke a clear and unambiguous line for once: "You are not ready for immortality". He's usually so cryptic that when he isn't, it stays with you...
Maneth has a point here that, unfortunately, got ignored in the resulting... well, "conversation" if you will.

Yes, Maneth, it is a bit of a shock to hear the resident Vorlon actually saying something clear, and not couched in mystery somehow. Perhaps he had no reason to make them reach for his meaning, or maybe Kosh just found the entire thing (the occurances in the episode) to be a waste of time and effort. His whole attitude seems to be "yea, I did it, it needed to be done, now get over it and get back to the relevant work".

Whatever the "reason", if there even is any, it was a surprisingly clear and straightforward response.
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Old July 2nd 08, 04:26   #59
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Re: EpDis: Deathwalker

Y'know, I think the only other time Kosh was ever so explicit was "Jump now!"
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Old July 2nd 08, 04:37   #60
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Re: EpDis: Deathwalker

I think you may be right about that. Of course, in that case Kosh was in a bit of a hurry.
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