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Old May 26th 08, 11:56   #21
Jan
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Re: EpDis: Infection

The main bit of foreshadowing that's completely ignored in the review is "When you become obsessed with the enemy, you become the enemy." Shadows and Vorlons anybody? We also see that Earth wants organic technology which points directly to events on Mars later on with the Shadow vessel.

Even JMS is aware that "Infection" became about the "man in a scarey rubber monster suit" rathern than many of the things he wanted it to portray. Still, it should also be remembered that it was the first episode shot even if it was the fourth shown.

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Old May 26th 08, 15:32   #22
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Re: EpDis: Infection

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The main bit of foreshadowing that's completely ignored in the review is "When you become obsessed with the enemy, you become the enemy." Shadows and Vorlons anybody? We also see that Earth wants organic technology which points directly to events on Mars later on with the Shadow vessel.
Not so much ignored, more that I don't agree with that interpretation. I don't believe that the Vorlons/Shadows obsession with each other ever led to them becoming more like the other. Their obsession was always with their own version of control, not the enemy.
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Old May 26th 08, 16:56   #23
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Re: EpDis: Infection

It's not always a matter of becoming more like each other, it's often a matter of taking the same or similar actions albeit for supposedly different reasons. Manipulating humans on a genetic level vs using them as central processing units. Destroying entire planets touched by the Shadows vs setting entire planets and races at war with each other.

I would differ that "Their obsession was always with their own version of control..." too, though. Their original difference was a philosophical one and they obeyed certain rules in being shepherds for the younger races. It's when their obsession became about control, about who was right that they became their own enemy.

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Old May 26th 08, 17:24   #24
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Re: EpDis: Infection

I would tend to agree with Jan. Every time I have heard the phrase "... become like the enemy" it did not mean that all aspects of the enemy's philosphy, politics, etc had to be adopted to fit. It meant primarily that the horrific tactics which you once abhorred you now embrace in the name of destroying the enemy. After awhile, those caught in the middle don't/won't really care if it's communism/capitalism, or dictatorship/democracy, or catholocism/protestantism... they'll only notice that you all use whips, now.
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Old May 26th 08, 19:12   #25
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Re: EpDis: Infection

The show Infection was foreshadowing is Crusade. Earth's playing with organic technology was going to lead to big problems.
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Old May 26th 08, 19:13   #26
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Re: EpDis: Infection

I understand what both of you are saying, but I don't think that applies to the Vorlons or the Shadows at all. They were always control freaks and it was their obsession with control that led to both of them becoming as openly powerful as they were. They didn't become like one another, they were already like one another.
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Old May 26th 08, 20:13   #27
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Re: EpDis: Infection

I know you have never changed your mind about anything, once you state an opinion. So I'll make this my last word, to wrap up the conversation from my end:

I don't know if it was stated or I just felt it was implied that the Vorlons and the Shadows, over time, grew to taking the extremes they we see and find out about in B5. I got the distinct impression they didn't start out that way. More like their "argument" grew gradually, in stages, until it became a matter of devastating or developing whole species. Whether or not you want to see that as a "... you become the enemy" kind of thing is actually a completely trivial point.

Oh, and for the record, I never read fan reviews. I don't see much point in them. I like the approach taken here: post a thread for an episode, state your opinion in brief, and use it to stimulate meaningful conversation. Disagreements do occur, obviously, but sometimes opinions can be changed and we can all learn something of a new perspective about the show.

But I know you'll never really be part of this, because you start off completely cemented in your own opinions. So, that's fine, I'll read some of your posts, likely skip the longer ones, and avoid responding. It seems the best way to approach the situation, when debating the inflexible. I'm just more interested in discussing these things with people who might admit to learning something from someone else from time to time.
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Old May 26th 08, 21:04   #28
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Re: EpDis: Infection

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I know you have never changed your mind about anything, once you state an opinion. So I'll make this my last word, to wrap up the conversation from my end:
Taking the approach that "you never change your mind" is incredibly short sighted. Changing someone's mind or opinion should never be the goal of any conversation or debate. Rather the goal should be a simple exchange of ideas and if those ideas happen to provoke a change in the opinion of someone else, then so be it.

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Oh, and for the record, I never read fan reviews. I don't see much point in them. I like the approach taken here: post a thread for an episode, state your opinion in brief, and use it to stimulate meaningful conversation. Disagreements do occur, obviously, but sometimes opinions can be changed and we can all learn something of a new perspective about the show.
Read or don't read my reviews, it doesn't really matter to me as I will write them even if no one is reading them. Although since I am a professional writer and do review B5 and other media not as a fan but as an extension of my other writing it is a misnomer to call my reviews fan reviews. Even if I weren't a professional and just a fan, there is nothing that separates a fan review from a professional review except the professional gets paid.

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But I know you'll never really be part of this, because you start off completely cemented in your own opinions. So, that's fine, I'll read some of your posts, likely skip the longer ones, and avoid responding. It seems the best way to approach the situation, when debating the inflexible. I'm just more interested in discussing these things with people who might admit to learning something from someone else from time to time.
If that's the way you want to approach it that's fine, although it has been my experience that not taking into account all opinions and rather only those that fit some criteria you have created leads to a bad end.
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Old May 27th 08, 18:00   #29
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Re: EpDis: Infection

I never posted here, but I did give this a D awhile back. I consider it the 2nd worst episode in front of TKO.


TBH I have to agree that all the "foreshadowing" is incidental and requires broad interpretation of a number of phrases. What brings this Star Trek episode out of the F range is the sequence at the end with Garibaldi and Sinclair and the time taken to give him the bit of depth that you wouldn't see on many other shows.
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Old May 27th 08, 23:57   #30
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Re: EpDis: Infection

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The show Infection was foreshadowing is Crusade. Earth's playing with organic technology was going to lead to big problems.
I think it does a lot more than foreshadow Crusade. It gives you a good indication of whats going on back home... this together with Earth's active stance with the Deathwalker situation/Epsilon III and the hidden factions in the Government backing Home Guard and a few other things tell us that Earth has not come to terms with it's dismal performance in the Minbari War... and this has led to a dangerous obsession with alien tech... in a bid to develop shortcuts to be on an even keel with a race such as the Minbari once more.

There are lots of little touches (even with guest or minor characters) that give us an inkling that Earth is a place that has a lot of fear, self doubt and insecurity.

It's this fear that leaves them wide open to the approach of Morden... and leads to the xenophobic idiot Clarke, moving himself into a place where he can seize power.
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