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Old November 14th 07, 19:15   #11
Elipsis
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Re: EpDis: Whatever Happened To Mr Garibaldi?

A. A heavy and deeply philosophical episode, about one point I just looked at my roomate while watching the show and said, "Wow... everybody is fucked."




The episode left me with a lot to think about and now I have some questions about Lorien, which might make it to its own thread by the time I'm done with S4 so I'll hold to them for now.



I've been spending an entire day now trying to get my head around why Sheridan needed to embrace death to be granted life. Why is fighting to save billions of lives not a good reason whereas Delenn is? Maybe it goes deeper than that. Maybe it is more about accepting that the world doesn't need you for the world to have meaning as much as you need the world for you to have meaning.

I don't know for sure, I'm going to go think about it for another 3 days.
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Old November 21st 07, 11:06   #12
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Re: EpDis: Whatever Happened To Mr Garibaldi?

I think G'Kar's quest to find Garibaldi was out of a sense of friendship that he had not had outside his own race, therefore making it all the more important to him to find Garibaldi.
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Old October 9th 10, 17:14   #13
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Re: EpDis: Whatever Happened To Mr Garibaldi?

The first line of this episode that struck me forcibly was Sheridan's, "The first obligation of a prisoner is to escape." That sounds so much like a quote that I googled it. I found something very similar in the Geneva Convention:
Quote:
A prisoner of war can legitimately try to escape from his captors. It is even considered by some that prisoners of war have a moral obligation to try to escape...
I was also reminded of Tolkien's words in his lecture "On Fairy-Stories", speaking of the derogatory usage many literature critics have for "escapist reading":
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Why should a man be scorned, if, finding himself in prison, he tries to get out and walk home?
We have several examples of prisoners in the episode, with varying reactions: Sheridan is trying to hang onto life and get away from Z'ha'dum; G'Kar is sitting rather quietly in his cell; Garibaldi is trying to escape by aggressively attacking his cell, unsuccessfully so. The depth of thought that is conveyed in this aspect of the story is stupendous.

Lorien is a name that comes from Tolkien's Middle-earth mythology. His character of that name is one of the Valar, the master of visions and dreams. How appropriate! His lines about the universe beginning with a word are quite Biblical, echoing the Gospel of John:
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In the beginning was the word...
Both Lorien and Sheridan are "in between", between tick and tock, life and death. That idea comes up repeatedly in this part of the saga.

I love the quote about "If you're falling off a cliff, at least you can try to fly." Interesting that Sheridan, in his video, uses that as a metaphor for falling in love! That brings Delenn back from her personal "in between" status, back to life and fighting the good fight.

That little bell that Cartasia rang strikes me as being quite ridiculous - it sounds so small and innocuous, but leads to such horrible evil.

Oh, and I can't neglect to mention Marcus' wonderfully Freudian line about "pike-al envy" - so funny!
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Old February 14th 15, 04:55   #14
Lennier's Tears
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Re: EpDis: Whatever Happened To Mr Garibaldi?

This is pretty great, although frankly, after 20 years, I still have no idea what the hell Lorien is talking about.

I think I'd be a lot more irritated than Sheridan is here, if I were trapped in some kind of cave (or idea of a cave?) with some strange guy who kept answering everything with more questions. Like Elipsis upthread, I don't understand why Sheridan has to accept death in order to live. If someone could explain that, that'd be grand. I can be quite dim

That bar scene is vaguely Star Wars-esque. That creepy bartender and those Centauri guards (what are they doing there?) are kind of like the Babylon 5 thugs from earlier episodes. Almost comical. I do like the interaction between G'Kar and Marucs, although as EnlightenedGkar said upthread, it isn't entirely clear exactly why Marcus is there. Regardess, it's amusing. Marcus is always pretty funny. "Pikal envy" amuses me.

Delenn has so much guilt, but then Sheridan's words (via Dr. Franklin .. was he in there going through all the logs? Quite a task!) "snap her out of it", in the same way Delenn's words snap Sheridan out of ... whatever it was at the end there. The scene of Delenn watching that video is very moving, and I like her resolve when she decides they're going to attack Z'Ha'Dum.

Captured G'Kar ... Londo's reaction is pretty great. Londo is pretty great with Cartagia in general. He's very smart, and very good with words. He know JUST how to talk to Cartagia. Others have commented on this, but I want to reiterate how great that scene is in the cell, where all is dark, except for the bright light that falls on G'Kar after he struck his deal with Londo. So well done.

Seeing Garibaldi imprisoned like that is very disturbing. There's rather a lot of hopelessness in this episode. Mr. Garibaldi's situation sure seems hopeless ...
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Old February 25th 15, 22:31   #15
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Re: EpDis: Whatever Happened To Mr Garibaldi?

Just watched this episode again. More really great stuff. We see Londo has already changed tact with Cartagia, making sure he says all the right things. The moment G'Kar asks for Londo to free Narn in exchange for his help is possibly one of the most significant moments in the series. I love the symbolism of the light falling on G'Kar. He's in probably the worst place a Narn could be – and it is exactly the place he needs to be.

I noticed that the harsh lighting in that scene made the skull cap Peter Jurasik wears as Londo a little too visible. Took me out of the scene a little bit, though it is only the first time I have noticed it.

In one of the previous episode discussions we discussed how Franklin has a habit of putting his foot into it and making a situation worse through his own arrogance, but here we see him find just the right thing to snap Delenn out of it.

I think there are different ways of looking at what Sheridan went through. First there is the symbolism – Sheridan has to come back as someone different, changed, to be able to end the Shadow War, so to be reborn he has to die first. I also think it is partly a test of Sheridan, quite similar to the test Sebastian puts him under in Comes the Inquisitor – and I don't think it is a coincidence that Wayne Alexander played both characters. Lorien isn't going to waste his time with any dumb schmuck who falls down that hole – he wants to know if Sheridan is the right person. Who is he? Why should he live? Delenn gives him a reason to live, just as he was willing to sacrifice himself to save Delenn in Comes the Inquisitor. Maybe there is also a practical aspect – Lorien admitted that it might not work, so maybe he needs Sheridan to meet him halfway somehow and have the willpower to stay alive, to have something worth living for.

I liked how, while Lorien is asking Sheridan 'who are you', Garibaldi was asking his captors, 'what do you want'? Like the prisoners aspect that Estelyn mentions above, there are lots of different themes being reflected in the various plot points.

It is interesting comparing these episodes to Deep Space Nine. The first six episodes of B5 season 4 were airing at the same time as the first six episodes of DS9 season six, and both were essentially six episode arcs. I think both moved quite slowly to begin with, but while DS9 meandered until it reached Sacrifice of Angels, B5 was very purposeful in these first six episodes, there is not a scene wasted.
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Old February 26th 15, 02:05   #16
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Re: EpDis: Whatever Happened To Mr Garibaldi?

Ah, great post. You make some excellent points there.

I still have trouble with the whole Lorien "you have to die" bit. Possibly because I tend to have a hard time understanding symbolism But, I like your suggestion that possibly Lorien needs Sheridan to meet him halfway, to really WANT to live. I dunno. That is a very good point about the same actor playing the part of Lorien and Sebastian. I never would have considered to think of that as part of the story.

Good point about Franklin, too. He definitely did exactly the right thing in this one.

I never noticed the skull cap on Londo in that light. I'm sure I'll be looking for it the next time I watch this episode, though. I've noticed it a few times on some of the other Centauri characters on the show. Particularly on the women wearing "bald caps". They're well done, but there are sometimes crinkles near the neck and such. The Centauri women in the background more often are actually bald, I think.
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Old April 3rd 15, 13:12   #17
Mororless
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Re: EpDis: Whatever Happened To Mr Garibaldi?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Springer View Post
I think there are different ways of looking at what Sheridan went through. First there is the symbolism Sheridan has to come back as someone different, changed, to be able to end the Shadow War, so to be reborn he has to die first. I also think it is partly a test of Sheridan, quite similar to the test Sebastian puts him under in Comes the Inquisitor and I don't think it is a coincidence that Wayne Alexander played both characters. Lorien isn't going to waste his time with any dumb schmuck who falls down that hole he wants to know if Sheridan is the right person. Who is he? Why should he live? Delenn gives him a reason to live, just as he was willing to sacrifice himself to save Delenn in Comes the Inquisitor. Maybe there is also a practical aspect Lorien admitted that it might not work, so maybe he needs Sheridan to meet him halfway somehow and have the willpower to stay alive, to have something worth living for.
What I think is notable is the difference between Lorien and Sebastian, the latter really holds the idea of personal sacrifice above everything, that dying for the good cause trumps all other moral philosophy.I think that makes sense coming from someone working for the Vorlons as it ties into there belief of obedience for the greater good although of course besides Kosh they don't hold themselves to the same standards anymore. I think Loriens point is that whilst self sacrifice is important to really to the best for the world(well galaxy) you need to be invested in it, to have something to live for. Only someone who can do that can really speak/act for everyones best interest.

You look at how Sheridan resolves the Shadow/Vorlon war and its not just though self sacrifice but rather trying to foster and understanding of everyone involved really wants from life, most importantly the Shadows/Vorlons themselves.

What I think is also important is that Sheridan is willing to accept the self sacrifice of others, sending Erikson and co to their deaths, the other ships taking the hits from the shadow planet killer, etc. He still takes the risks himself when its for the greater good but I think this goes back to the discussion about him relative to Ivanova at the end of season 4. She can't take self sacrifice from others as well because she's not as emotionally invested in the world as he is as Lorien tries unsuccessfully to point out to her. Her becoming Ranger One at the end of Sleeping in Light is IMHO JMS hinting that she has the potential to follow Sheridan and become really invested in the world accepting the sacrifices of others.

Quote:
It is interesting comparing these episodes to Deep Space Nine. The first six episodes of B5 season 4 were airing at the same time as the first six episodes of DS9 season six, and both were essentially six episode arcs. I think both moved quite slowly to begin with, but while DS9 meandered until it reached Sacrifice of Angels, B5 was very purposeful in these first six episodes, there is not a scene wasted.
Indeed I think it is quite telling, DS9 obviously gave the conclusion of the Dominion War a lot more time than B5 did the Vorlon/Shadow war but honestly a lot of the time it just felt drawn out to me when the emotional climax was hit at the start of season 6.
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