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View Poll Results: The Fall Of Night
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Old September 21st 07, 11:46   #41
maneth
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Re: EpDis: Dust To Dust

No, not all hybrids are sterile, especially not in the plant world. Lions and tigers can crossbreed to form ligers (male lion + female tiger) and tigons (male tiger and female lion). Their habitats normally never intersect in the wild, so any breeding is accidental in zoos, or possibly intentional among people who breed exotic "pets".

Male ligers and tigons are sterile, but female ligers may breed with either lions or tigers to produce li-ligers or ti-ligers, although these are usually rather sickly and probably sterile. Hybrid vigor works well within a species, bringing in more variety into the genome (i. e. mongrel dogs are usually healthier than pure breeds), but not necessarily in the rare cases when interbreeding between closely related species is possible.

It hasn't been proved that H. sap. ever interbred with Neanderthals.

I always thought that passing beyond the rim meant becoming a being of energy like Shadows and Vorlons, as happened to humans eventually. Some were able to transform temporarily, others were so permanently. I wonder if there was ever a phase when Vorlons were mortal beings of flesh and blood, and if so, what that original form looked like (as they appeared different to every sentient being, except Centauri who saw nothing). For beings of energy rather than matter, the intergalactic void wouldn't pose a problem.

It's interesting to speculate that if Sinclair, as originally intended, had led B5 until the end (and presumably traveled into the past in Sleeping in Light rather than beyond the rim), and had had the relationship with Delenn, he would've had a child with his own descendant before going back to the past to sire the ancestors of that descendant! *my head hurts*
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Old September 21st 07, 13:06   #42
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Re: EpDis: Dust To Dust

Quote:
Originally Posted by maneth View Post
I wonder if there was ever a phase when Vorlons were mortal beings of flesh and blood, and if so, what that original form looked like (as they appeared different to every sentient being, except Centauri who saw nothing). For beings of energy rather than matter, the intergalactic void wouldn't pose a problem.
Kosh appeared different to every sentient being, because that is how he wished to be perceived. Projecting himself in that manner took a lot out of him.

The vorlons are squidy jellyfishy things as seen in Falling Towards Apotheosis.

I suspect they were always like that as we have Lorien's musings to Ivanova to go on:

Ivanova: Ok, let's assume that in all of the universe, you were the first
living being to achieve sentience billions of years ago. Now at
that point you'd be doing pretty good to invent fire or the wheel.
You couldn't come up with science and technology find a sirum for
immortality all in one lifetime.

Quote:
Lorien: It wasn't necessary. We were born, naturally immortal.

Ivanova: That's impossible. Everything dies.

Lorien: Yes. Now. At first we were kept in balance by birth rate. Few of
us were ever born, less than a handful each year. Then I think the
universe decided, that to appreciate life for there to be change and
growth, life had to be short. So the generations that followed us
grew old, infirmed, then died
. But those of us who were first went
on.
We discovered the Vorlons and the shadows when they were infant
races and nurished them -- helped them and all the other races you
call the first ones. In time, most of them died. Or passed beyond
the rim to whatever lies in the darkness between the galaxies.
On that basis it would be interesting to know if lorien is talking of generations that followed as later generations of the first One races, or the younger races.

It seems to make sense that he is talking of different races growing infrirm, but I',m not confident enmough in that assertion to rule out the other idea... although we know that it has been a veeeeeeeeeeeeeery long time prior to Kosh's death that a vorlon has died previously.
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Old September 22nd 07, 21:35   #43
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Re: EpDis: Dust To Dust

Quote:
Originally Posted by maneth View Post
I always thought that passing beyond the rim meant becoming a being of energy like Shadows and Vorlons, as happened to humans eventually.
I always figured that the expression "Passing beyond the rim" as used in the show (such as in Into The Fire) meant literally what it said ... that the First Ones (in this case) were literally leaving the galaxy (or 'Getting the Hell out' if you prefer), physically passing beyond the borders of known space into what lay beyond.

Spoiler for The Lost Tales:
TLT heavily implies the same thing with Lochley's comments about G'Kar and Franklin exploring beyond the rim. Granted that was clearly meant to be a tribute to the passing of the actors, but it fits with the notion that going beyond the rim is something physical and literal rather than a transition from Corporeal to non-Corporeal being.
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Old September 23rd 07, 01:38   #44
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Re: EpDis: Dust To Dust

To me, going, or passing, beyond the rim has both a literal and a figurative meaning. The literal meaning is to leave the galaxy, and enter the void between galaxies. You might also call that leaving known space, which is figuratively what you do when you die.
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Old September 23rd 07, 06:33   #45
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Re: EpDis: Dust To Dust

That is definitely a possibility. But I've always wondered if all of these ancient races would all, collectively and unanimously, agree to die just to get out of the way of the younger races. Some of the First Ones were already doing that quite nicely, it seems. Some were very hard to find, I recall.

But it certainly seems to be an alternative possibility, put in most definitely on purpose, to keep it vague. Just like the real end of life is.
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Old September 24th 07, 02:54   #46
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Re: EpDis: Dust To Dust

Beyond the Fields We Know
East of the Sun, West of the Moon
Back of the North Wind

The idea's a very old one.
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Old September 24th 07, 06:01   #47
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Re: EpDis: Dust To Dust

Be that as it may, KF, have you ever known any species that decided to kill itself off rather than "get in the way of the younger races"?

I just wonder how Lorien got such agreement. Weren't there any shadows or vorlons who said "screw this...".
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Old September 24th 07, 06:10   #48
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Re: EpDis: Dust To Dust

I don't think they died out, at least not voluntarily. They went literally out of the galaxy, but to survive there for any length of time without possibility of resupply, they had to become incorporeal.

The Vorlons and Shadows are interesting creatures. Certainly the Vorlons have some corporeal element, or else it would be impossible to poison them. However, I suspect that they are able to convert into completely incorporeal entities when needed. Obviously they must be the most superior telepaths of the Galaxy, it was they who bred the ability into the younger races after all, or else they wouldn't be able to change their appearance according to whim. However, that makes me wonder, why can the Narns, who haven't had telepaths in centuries, see the Vorlons, while the Centauri who have telepaths working for the court can't? Is that because they've always been closer to the Shadows than the Vorlons, or what?
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Old September 24th 07, 06:25   #49
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Re: EpDis: Dust To Dust

No, I don't think the First Ones' "going beyond the rim" involved dying, at least not with any certainty. It was clearly vacating our galaxy, and leaving it to the younger races, but it was also a voyage of exploration for them, as they were going into uncharted territory. I see many different possibilities for their fate, or perhaps fates. They may well have become incorporeal, and stayed that way, another step in their evolution. They might have gone dormant, leaving one or two conscious, to guide their ships to another galaxy. They may have met other First Ones, from other galaxies, in the darkness between galaxies, or perhaps some other kind of intelligent beings that lived between galaxies. Or, perhaps they read Zen, and became "one with the universe." I am sure there are other possibilities as well... perhaps slipping into another dimension?
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Old September 24th 07, 08:52   #50
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Re: EpDis: Dust To Dust

Quote:
Originally Posted by maneth View Post
However, that makes me wonder, why can the Narns, who haven't had telepaths in centuries, see the Vorlons, while the Centauri who have telepaths working for the court can't? Is that because they've always been closer to the Shadows than the Vorlons, or what?
It's because Kosh didn't want Londo to see him, presumable due to his connection with the Shadows.

Kosh wasn't showing his genuine form during that incident, he was projecting himself in a manner that everybody saw him in a certain way... which is why he appeared different to all... but followed the same general description (angelic).

There is nothing to indicate all Centauri fail to perceive Kosh, because IIRC the only Centauri asked is Londo.

A lot of people may feel that Kosh was being unfair to Londo but actually I think he was doing it for a good reason. By excluding Londo from the exxperience that everybody else was sharing in, he may have hope to inspire londo to question himself, question the path he was on.

Although the Centauri Prime trilogy books do have a slightly different take on what Londo saw.
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