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View Poll Results: Gumbel, Gumbel, or Gumble...who's your favorite?
A -- Excellent 4 14.29%
B -- Good 19 67.86%
C -- Average 5 17.86%
D -- Poor 0 0%
F -- Failure 0 0%
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Old August 19th 07, 01:02   #21
Chilli
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Re: EpDis: A Distant Star

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What makes you think it didn't have a jump engine?
They got lost in hyperspace due to losing the beacon to jump points, and thus not knowing where they are.

If they had a jump engine, couldn't they just jump to normal space, figure out their position due to the star field, and jump back into hyperspace with knowledge of where they were? Unless, of course, the jump engine was down - which was not mentioned, though.
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Old August 19th 07, 01:21   #22
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Re: EpDis: A Distant Star

Chilli, there were sparks and smoke on the bridge! Don't you know that means the ship's been catastrophically damaged? How else would they show damage to a ship, except by sparks and smoke?
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Old August 19th 07, 01:41   #23
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Re: EpDis: A Distant Star

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Two big beefs with this one.

*) The Cortez. Okay. They named a ship after Hernándo Cortez. What are its sister ships, the Hitler and the Genghis Khan?
I'm with you on that one. Problem is, most of the "explorers" in those times were pretty much as bad. They could have named the ship the Humbolt, but few would know who that was.
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Old August 19th 07, 02:25   #24
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Re: EpDis: A Distant Star

They had to have a jump engine because the whole mission of that type of ship was to go where no jumpgates were and build them.
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Old August 19th 07, 02:47   #25
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Re: EpDis: A Distant Star

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I'm with you on that one. Problem is, most of the "explorers" in those times were pretty much as bad. They could have named the ship the Humbolt, but few would know who that was.
True, I guess. However, as bad as some other "explorers" were at the time, there aren't *that* many that explored foreign civilisations by completely destroying them. I would have been quite happy with a Marco Polo, for example. But I guess it just doesn't sound nearly as impressive.

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They had to have a jump engine because the whole mission of that type of ship was to go where no jumpgates were and build them.
That would make sense, and I would assume that. However, they not once manage that the jump engine is down. Noone asks if it can be repaired, or anything of the sort. Which just is .. weird.
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Old August 19th 07, 12:18   #26
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Re: EpDis: A Distant Star

I checked the Lurker's guide on this matter to see what JMS had to say about the naming of the Cortez ..

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If Cortez had NOT landed in northern Mexico, do you think it would have remained undiscovered until now?

Fact #1: somebody was bound to discover the Americas.


Fact #2: any sufficiently advanced civilization or culture will inevitably attempt to exploit any civilization or culture not sufficiently advanced to fight back on a level playing field.


Blaming explorers for exploring has always seemed to me really kind of silly; do people *really* think that if Columbus hadn't landed here, it'd be 1994 and we still wouldn't know the world was round and that this continent was here? It doesn't matter who discovered it, the same result would've come. Somebody had to discover it sooner or later.
I hope his knowledge on the actions Cortez was *personally* responsible for is limited. Otherwise, for once in my life, I really don't get where JMS is coming from. By that logic, I can't hate Hitler either, because .. sooner or later, some German would have wanted to "explore" Poland, France and Russia.
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Old August 19th 07, 21:21   #27
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Re: EpDis: A Distant Star

He does seem kind of fatalistic, about the native American cultures being "exploited" by "explorers." Of course he is right. If it had not been Columbus and Cortez and Pizarro, it would have been three other guys, probably equally brutal. But, even if it was inevitable, I still don't think it was excusable.
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Old August 20th 07, 09:48   #28
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Re: EpDis: A Distant Star

The whole thing about losing the beacon has no bearing on whether a ship has a jump engine or not it is the basis of navigating in hyperspace ... if you are driving across the desert, you can't just say "This road is boring, I'm going to head out across the sand and find my own way. I'll be OK because I have a big powerful engine."

We previously had a long discussion about the purpose of the beacons, probably over at JMSNews, and the general concensus appeared to be that the beacons (whether all jump gates or not) correspond to known, mapped locations in normal space. For ships with their own jump capability, it simply means that you can jump out of hyperspace without a gate (i.e. between beacons, for example). However, as long as you are in contact with the beacon network, and know exactly where you are in relation to the beacons, then you can easily calculate your exact position in normal space.

However, once you lose contact with the beacon network, jumping out of hyperspace puts you into unknown, unmapped territory so no star chart is going to help you find your way home.
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Old August 20th 07, 13:41   #29
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Re: EpDis: A Distant Star

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However, once you lose contact with the beacon network, jumping out of hyperspace puts you into unknown, unmapped territory so no star chart is going to help you find your way home.
They would have *some* approximate knowledge of where in the galaxy they were. Or if they didn't, they could determine this by determining the position of the galactic core in their viewfield. With that knowledge, they could identify multiple objects in their viewfield.

For example, they could do spectral analyses of nearby bright stars. Through a spectral analysis, they could identify a star's unique fingerprint instantly. Even today we have catalgues to identify stars by their spectral fingerprints, covering all the stars in our viewfield. These catalogues grow with every year, as every year, we get more and more measurements off stars that we don't actually see, but which telescopes - especially ones in orbit - do see. By the 23rd century, Humans would also have had the possibility to take measurements from all over the galaxy, to make these catalgues virtually complete for our galaxy - at least for relatively bright stars.

An explorer ship would most definitely have these catalogues. So there is no way in hell an explorer ship could not, in a random position in our galaxy, determine points A, B and C. And if you have the positions of A, B, and C, you know where you are. You don't even have to know their distances to you.
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Old August 20th 07, 16:24   #30
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Re: EpDis: A Distant Star

Sure, but would they then be able to find the hyperspace route home? Cortez might have been able to jump out and find where it is in normal space, but they'd probably hop back in and be even more lost in hyperspace than before.
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