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View Poll Results: A Day In The Strife
A -- Excellent 22 75.86%
B -- Good 7 24.14%
C -- Average 0 0%
D -- Poor 0 0%
F -- Failure 0 0%
Voters: 29. You may not vote on this poll

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Old November 22nd 05, 22:58   #21
KoshFan
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Re: EpDis: Point Of No Return

Except that I am still arguing that the "one who is already dead" is/ought to be Morden. I'd argue that point to JMS's face, although he would probably skewer me rather expertly for doing so.
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Old November 23rd 05, 03:02   #22
Joseph DeMartino
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Re: EpDis: Point Of No Return

Ah. In that case I stand by my apology for misunderstanding the point you were making in that post, but reaffirm that you have always been wrong and JMS does disagree with you on the point you weren't making. Really, how you can maintain that Morden "really is" or "really should be" who was meant by the prophecy in the face of both the internal logic of the story and JMS's flat statement is beyond me.

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Old November 23rd 05, 12:49   #23
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Re: EpDis: Point Of No Return

Well, my argument is that the internal logic of the story supports me.

Lady Morella says that Londo has three chances. Save the eye, don't kill the man, surrender to his greatest fear, we all know them. Also, remember that if he blows the first two the third chance is his only chance for redemption. We're pretty clear that G'Kar's eye was the first. So that's settled.

But if Sheridan were the man who is already dead... and not killing him redeemed him... then by simply not killing Sheridan Londo is redeemed, the third chance for redemption is unnecessary, Londo doesn't have to surrender to his greatest fear and be destroyed by it, and we encounter the very first time in the entire B5 universe where something doesn't happen in threes. In fact, it could be argued that since Londo doesn't need to be destroyed, he should survive and die peacefully in his old age, surrounded by friends and relations.

Except, of course, he doesn't. (Instead he dies surrounded by one friend. Or at least his neck does.) His death is necessary for Sheridan's escape -- and Delenn's, too. Let's not forget her. So either this interpretation of the prophecy is a little off, or Londo is caught in some cosmically tragic Catch-22. "Yeah, you've already been redeemed, so you don't have to surrender to your greatest fear and be destroyed by it. But you still have to die."

As I see it, the only way you can say that Sheridan is the man who is already dead is if you also say that Londo got it right the second time and was redeemed, and the third chance at redemption -- now superfluous -- is something we never actually saw. Which doesn't sit well with me either.


Now a good debater will present his counterargument, so here goes:

Morden is the man who is already dead. What Londo should have done, in order to both save his world and to avoid succumbing to his own desire for revenge, would be to nuke Selini and then send Morden off to the other Shadows with Londo's message: hands off Centauri Prime. Instead, Londo kills the Shadows to get them off his world, but he kills Morden largely out of personal vengeance for Adira, and this, I would argue, is where he blows his chance for redemption.

Londo surrenders to his greatest fear when the Drakh place the keeper on him. Consider his reasons for allowing this: he is doing so to save his world and his people, and is sacrificing his freedom -- not only of deed but also of thought -- for that purpose. Selfishness and ambition dragged him into the alliance with the Shadows (witness "The Coming of Shadows"), and now selflessness and sacrifice absolve him of that guilt. Also, consider: Londo appears to be a happy drunk in the early seasons, but this covers his own dread of his irrelevancy, his powerlessness. Through the help of the Shadows he shook off that irrelevancy. By surrendering to the keeper, he returns to that powerlessness and irrelevancy -- but he can no longer even control his own words or actions.

Moreover, being killed by G'Kar is no longer Londo's greatest fear at the time of death. He tells G'Kar to do it; he has been expecting it for a long time; by doing so he saves his people. It is something to embrace, not reject, and he embraces it.

So there's my argument: Morden is the man who is already dead, the keeper (loss of control) is Londo's greatest fear, he is redeemed by that act, and then marks time for seventeen years. When the chance to free his people comes at last, he jumps for it.

I really think JMS either missed a trick, or simply spaced out when he said Sheridan was the man who was already dead. Either way, that's how I read the prophecy.
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Old November 23rd 05, 14:15   #24
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Re: EpDis: Point Of No Return

The flaw in your argument KF is that Morden wasn't dead, he was near death and repaired by the Shadows. The Shadows aren't capable of bringing someone back to life when they are dead.

Londo chose not to Kill Sheridan, so, if Sheridan had gotten away before the Keeper awoke, Londo would've been saved. But, the Keeper woke up and would've killed Sheridan. So, in order to "Not kill the man who was already dead" Londo had to surrender himself to his greatest fear. He had dnightmares of being killed by G'Kar all his life, that fear never went away, he accepted his fate, but, never relished it. And I feel he also feared leaving the fate of his people in someone else's hands, as he was doing by allowing G'Kar to kill him.
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Old November 23rd 05, 17:38   #25
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Re: EpDis: Point Of No Return

Quote:
What Londo should have done, in order to both save his world and to avoid succumbing to his own desire for revenge, would be to nuke Selini and then send Morden off to the other Shadows with Londo's message: hands off Centauri Prime.
And the Shadows would have agreed, cowering to Londo's "message?"


And Lady Morella never said that Londo will accomplish one and only one of his chances. Nor did she say, "succumb to what will be your greatest fear at the time of when it happens," nor can we assume it wasn't his greatest fear just because he was noble enough to conquer it for a moment.

Surrending to the Keeper is not his greatest fear because he didn't even know it existed up until right before he put it on. The G'Kar thing has been haunting him all his life.
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Old November 23rd 05, 17:58   #26
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Re: EpDis: Point Of No Return

Right, and his death at the hands of G'Kar was actually a release from not only the Keeper and the Drakh, but also from the life that he led that was marred by death, pain, guilt, and power.
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Old November 23rd 05, 18:09   #27
Joseph DeMartino
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Re: EpDis: Point Of No Return

"In the end, if you have failed all the others, you must give in to your greatest fear"

Londo's greatest fear, articulated from the very first regular episode and repeatedly referred to thereafter is his death at G'Kar's hands. Accepting the Keeper doesn't fit the bill. A writer of JMS's calibre doesn't set something like that up without having it pay off. Also remember that we see the end of Londo's story in S3, and JMS had to shape the story so it could wrap in S4 with a coda in the form of "SiL". Londo accepting the Keeper would have taken place off screen entirely. Odd way to plot a narrative.

Londo fails in his attempt to free Sheridan, "the one who is already dead", and must then at the last face what has always beeh his greatest fear, but is now transformed into something else - death at G'Kar's hands, the only way to prevent the Keeper from waking up and killing Sheridan. Don't forget, the prophecy doesn't indicate one way or the other if it is talking about Londo's greatest fear at the time of his death or his greatest fear at the time he receives the prophecy. In any case if accepting the Keeper is his greatest fear it hardly comes "at the last", but rather 17 years before his demise.

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Old November 24th 05, 03:50   #28
KoshFan
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Re: EpDis: Point Of No Return

Mmm. The change in his fear over time is something that had not occurred to me. Morden still qualifies as a candidate (if nothing more) on the strength of Sheridan's comment in "In the Shadow of Z'ha'dum."

GKE wrote:
Quote:
And the Shadows would have agreed, cowering to Londo's "message?"
Well, probably not. But as "The Very Long Night of Londo Mollari" pointed out, whether or not it would have worked is irrelevant. What is relevant is that Londo had a chance to act and failed to do so.

Interesting argument about failing to save Sheridan... especially since under that logic Londo still doesn't kill the one who is already dead, and I'm not quite sure how that qualifies as failing... but I will accept that on the strength of the setup, his death at G'Kar's hands is fitting salvation for him. I just think that JMS muddied the waters excessively with his prophecy if that's what he intended all along.
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Old November 24th 05, 12:48   #29
hypatia
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Re: EpDis: Point Of No Return

He didn't fail at that task, he was about to fail at that task. Knowing when the keeper awoke he would not be in control of his actions any longer.

O.K. there's no debate about the "already dead" part of the prophesy since JMS specifically answered that.

What about the other parts?
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Old November 24th 05, 20:57   #30
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Re: EpDis: Point Of No Return

I'm abandoning this particular fight. I will accept JMS's explanation. It's just not how I would have done it.
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