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View Poll Results: Who is your favorite member?
A -- Excellent 9 37.50%
B -- Good 13 54.17%
C -- Average 2 8.33%
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Old August 22nd 05, 12:46   #21
Springer
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Re: EpDis: Divided Loyalties

Actually I put the blame for that scene squarely at the feet at JMS, although I agree it doesn't help that its one of Pat Tallman's lines. Sometimes JMS can do funny stuff, like in Sic Transit Vir, but a lot of the time I presonally found JMS' 'jokes' to be a bit lacking, and in this case, it seemed inappropriate. I know JMS probably just wanted to lighten the mood, but it seemed over the top. However, if we go back to Divided Loyalties, when Garibaldi pretends to react to Lyta's password, and even the bit where Sheridan and Delenn talk about Delenn's "gaps in her vocabulary" they are both subtle and appropriate and not over the top, and help lighten the episode up.

Then again, people always tell me I've got no sense of humour, so what do I know?!
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Old August 22nd 05, 13:14   #22
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Re: EpDis: Divided Loyalties

I actually like the Liar scene, it makes me smile each time I see it. I also enjoy Pat in B5, though I must admit that my perspective is distorted by the fact that I consider her very attractive, and makes me more sympathetic to her performance!

There were a lot worse examples of JMSs humor in B5 - Ivanova's 'Boom-Shaka-Laka' scene being the one I hate the most.
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Old August 22nd 05, 14:06   #23
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Re: EpDis: Divided Loyalties

Quote:
However, if we go back to Divided Loyalties, when Garibaldi pretends to react to Lyta's password,... [is] subtle and appropriate and not over the top, and help lighten the episode up.
Garibaldi's password reaction joke is not subtle.
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Old August 24th 05, 16:06   #24
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Re: EpDis: Divided Loyalties

It's also marvelous foreshadowing.
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Old October 18th 05, 13:54   #25
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Re: EpDis: Divided Loyalties

Like heaps. Sum1 needs to design a smiley that does "the look" For me lyta is brilliant, and you're all forgetting another great bit: the Londo/Lyta "nightmares" scene. Dangerous girl! But poor Susan! Her face when she says goodbye to Talia is agony. How many heartbreaks can one woman take!? The Micheal faking bit was simply funny first viewing, but it's also the best bit of foreshadowing I can think of. "Micheal, if you ever do that to me again...." Fantastic!
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Old August 23rd 07, 02:30   #26
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Re: EpDis: Divided Loyalties

I gave it a C. It felt rushed and not appropriate planned for in the brilliant way that some other plotlines are foreshadowed...

I'm fully aware of the reality of the situation that caused this episode to come to be, but nonetheless I was pretty disappointed with it.



Also: I'm pretty sure after reading the Lurker's guide that Ivanova was hitting that.

Last edited by Elipsis; August 23rd 07 at 02:39. Reason: Added 2nd part of this post
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Old August 29th 10, 23:25   #27
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Re: EpDis: Divided Loyalties

I like this episode. The story arc aspects are interesting, and not just those pertaining to Talia. I enjoyed the "butt" dialogue between Delenn and Sheridan at the beginning, and seeing how their relationship forms.

More than his faking the reaction, I liked Garibaldi's action of giving his gun to Sheridan before being tested. Good thinking!

I found it interesting to see both telepaths saying something very similar about the night - Talia's alternate personality coming out at night, and Lyta's allowing herself to recall Kosh only at night. I also thought that Andrea Thompson acted the difference between the two personalities well - her facial expression changed subtly yet distinctly.

Seeing Ivanova so open, softened and vulnerable is a nice change - and it makes me feel for her when she is hurt so badly.
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Old February 1st 15, 22:32   #28
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Re: EpDis: Divided Loyalties

I just watched this episode yesterday. It's definitely one of my favorites. I always look forward to it and dread it at the same time. I'm sad to see Talia go, but it's such a good exit!

That moment when Talia "turns" still gives me chills, even now, almost twenty years after I first saw it. It's an excellent scene (although it does have Talia just coincidentally walking into a room at a convenient time, which is a thing that happens often on B5. See also "Stoner? Mat Stoner?" ) and it's quite creepy!

One of the other great things about this episode is the "Ivanova is a latent telepath" reveal. It's hard to remember now what I was thinking when I first watched this, but as I recall, I did not see that one coming. The character has plenty of reason to dislike the psi corps, so her antipathy never seemed entirely out of place. But then when you find out she is a latent telepath that fits perfectly also. The reveal is great, and it also adds to the Ivanova/Talia relationship, and makes it more tragic. Ivanova must have REALLY trusted Talia to let her get that close.

Garibaldi's fake reaction to the password is entirely in character, but such an inappropriate thing to do! I'm surprised no one punched him for that

I'm not crazy about the "butt" dialogue. I could buy that Delenn doesn't know the word "butt", but why would she assume it's a verb? Her English is pretty much perfect. But that is obviously a very minor quibble

As for the Talia/Ivanova relationship, was that always going to be part of the story, or did it get added in when Talia got written out of the story, to add to the "Ivanova's failed relationships" background? It sets her up way better for the Marcus story and everything that was to come after that than the old boyfriend thing in the first season (speaking of which, I kinda have to question her judgement if she didn't she that coming. Surely he didn't turn into an alien-hater overnight?). The Talia thing is way more tragic.
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Old March 23rd 15, 17:36   #29
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Re: EpDis: Divided Loyalties

I went back and watched this episode after the War Without End discussion as its the other most obvious "switching of plans" and personally I'm still a bit "divided" .

What we did get was certainly very enjoyable but to me felt slightly rushed and could perhaps have been better covered by two episodes. You could I spose argue JMS might have been less well disposed to Talia with Andrea Thompson leaving for caeer reasons rather than suffering from the mental health issues Micheal O'Hare had and wanted to get her out of the way more. My guess though would be he just ended up not having the space as when you look at it the end of season 2 is pretty much all essential episodes, even Confessions and Lamentation whilst not a big arc episode was IMHO important to have at that point to set the tone for what follows essentially "upping the stakes".

Beyond Talia herself not getting a great deal of focus in what was her sendoff I felt the whole issue of essentially killing someone by causing there personality to be erased wasnt really covered as much as it could have been. Beyond the moral issue of doing it to unsuspecting crew members I felt it could have been mined quite effectively for drama from the lead characters as well. I spose you could argue even for B5 the "if its me what then?" answer would be a bit dark given that the obvious answer from Ivanova especially would be "throw me out the nearest airlock".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lennier's Tears
As for the Talia/Ivanova relationship, was that always going to be part of the story, or did it get added in when Talia got written out of the story, to add to the "Ivanova's failed relationships" background? It sets her up way better for the Marcus story and everything that was to come after that than the old boyfriend thing in the first season (speaking of which, I kinda have to question her judgement if she didn't she that coming. Surely he didn't turn into an alien-hater overnight?). The Talia thing is way more tragic.
Talia being the mole was as I understand it always planned just pushed forward in the story, Not sure whether that means the Ivanova relationship was always planned as well or whether JMS felt it was a good way to use the character.

It is a bit strange looking back now given how much more liberal US TV has become but having openly gay/bisexual characters in a more obvious and prolonged relationship would likely have put JMS under a lot of pressure. Trek bypassed it a little with the Dax episode being essentially a continued hetrosexual relationship and a one off. The big issue with sci fi as well is that you really have to give some comment simply by having to invent how your future society views it at the time.

As I said above I can't help but think even with Thompson leaving at that stage things would have been better spilt up as a two partner. Have the two of them hook up in the first episode and then Lyta turn up(maybe with a bit more drama having to escape pursuit and/or be resuced) and leave the reveal of the mole plot as a cliff hanger to be delt with in the second.

Last edited by Mororless; March 23rd 15 at 17:38.
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Old March 24th 15, 08:34   #30
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Re: EpDis: Divided Loyalties

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Originally Posted by Mororless View Post
Talia being the mole was as I understand it always planned just pushed forward in the story, Not sure whether that means the Ivanova relationship was always planned as well or whether JMS felt it was a good way to use the character.
(snip)
It is a bit strange looking back now given how much more liberal US TV has become but having openly gay/bisexual characters in a more obvious and prolonged relationship would likely have put JMS under a lot of pressure...
So, first I liked your take (even though I quoted only this).

Second, I was wondering why you felt that the Talia character being a mole was planned. I'm not saying you're wrong. I don't know. But to me it seemed extremely abrupt. I like the way it was done but it also really bummed me out because she really was developing and I felt like she died.

Third, I totally agree. Back in '94 anything potentially homosexual was nearly taboo. I applaud JMS and the rest of the crew for including it and even more, making it seem like it's no big thing. No one gave it a second thought. The way I take it is that humanity in the B5 universe has turned it's xenophobic tendencies outward.
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