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Old July 6th 08, 03:02   #73
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Re: EpDis: Deathwalker

While usually my last word on internet arguments is admirably summed up by XKCD (, I'm gonna give this one last throw, just for the fun of it.

Originally Posted by Cell View Post
I have presented plenty of reasoning
Let's test that theory, shall we?

Originally Posted by Cell View Post
The Talia as traitor was a retcon, that's the way it always came across to me. It wasn't a bad retcon mind you, but I do think JMS is being delusional by trying to claim that it was set up from the beginning, when by watching the series you can see it clearly wasn't. They were setting up for Talia to change, but not into another personality. All the mirrors and stuff like that was a nice way of setting up her eventual turn from the Corps and the life she knew to her new superpowered ways with the Vorlons. If JMS's explanation works for you that's cool, but to me it's an obvious retcon.
Exhibit A: Cell felt it was a retcon.
Exhibit B: The mirrors were a setup for something else, which didn't happen.

Exhibit A is actually an opinion and shall be stricken from the factual record. Exhibit B is... an interpretation, not actual data, and seems rooted mostly in how Cell interpreted the show. This interpretation is valid but cannot be construed to be a fact.

Originally Posted by Cell View Post
Follow the story, that's all one need do to see that JMS retconned the entire ulterior personality. First, mirrors do represent internal change, like Talia struggling with her identity as loyal Corps member and wanting to leave the Corps as she becomes more and more enmeshed in their abhorrent, to her, ways. That was the purpose of the entire Ivanova relationship, the run-in with the runaways Teeps, Ironheart, etc.. All of that was designed to move Talia towards the path of independence, or at the very least to the Vorlons. There was never any hint of a secondary personality, not until after Divided Loyalties and until JMS started trying to explain away all of Talia on the show as having something to do with her secondary personality.

I''m simply saying that JMS' trying to say that he intended all along for Talia to have a secondary personality or that it was always there as a failsafe is a crock. Him saying otherwise is very transparent and it serves a perfect purpose for a writer. It gives him a get out free clause, although in this case it backfires. It says, "Oh, that Talia thing wasn't abrupt, I had it planned all along just in case, so see, it works." Despite that attempt, it doesn't work, it's still abrupt and forced. It works out in the end, but that is only because of the following Lyta storyline where she takes over what was originally Talia's story.

Therein lies the biggest reason why it's an obvious retcon, from the start JMS painted the story of Talia leaving the Corps, of the internal struggle within.
Exhibit C: The mirrors were about internal struggle.
Exhibit D: Talia was moving towards the Vorlons, independence, and Ivanova.

Exhibit C is a rehash of the previously discredited Exhibit B. Exhibit D is true, but reflected an earlier arc... which, let the record show, was actually Lyta's originally, not Talia's, so bumping off Talia and bringing Lyta back restored continuity in the show, not harmed it.

In short, Cell provided us in this thread with three pieces of evidence for his opinion. One seems to be additional opinion, one is not evidence but interpretation -- which, however valid, does not stand in place of fact -- and the third is accurate but not exactly relevant, since of course Talia's arc would have gone that way, with all its attendant foreshadowing, but didn't because Thompson left. In other words, his opinion is backed up by other opinions, and does not actually constitute "reasoning" as asserted above.

Don't feel bad, Cell, it happens to all of us... and, in fact, 99% of the Human race (especially on the internet) functions in a facts-free environment all the time, so you're in very good, and very numerous, company. Just your bad luck that you've fallen in with crazy logic-lovers.

Moreover, all this doesn't actually mean that you are wrong. JMS could be lying through his teeth and you could be absolutely correct. However, going by the available evidence -- the reasoning you provided vs. the reasoning JMS provided -- and applying Occam's Razor (the simplest solution is probably right), the odds against you being justified in this are long enough to be measured in light-years.

Summer Glau*

Know what you do.

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