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Old March 24th 15, 10:14   #31
Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 91
Re: EpDis: Divided Loyalties

Originally Posted by deaded View Post
Originally Posted by Mororless View Post
Talia being the mole was as I understand it always planned just pushed forward in the story, Not sure whether that means the Ivanova relationship was always planned as well or whether JMS felt it was a good way to use the character.
It is a bit strange looking back now given how much more liberal US TV has become but having openly gay/bisexual characters in a more obvious and prolonged relationship would likely have put JMS under a lot of pressure...
So, first I liked your take (even though I quoted only this).

Second, I was wondering why you felt that the Talia character being a mole was planned. I'm not saying you're wrong. I don't know. But to me it seemed extremely abrupt. I like the way it was done but it also really bummed me out because she really was developing and I felt like she died.

Third, I totally agree. Back in '94 anything potentially homosexual was nearly taboo. I applaud JMS and the rest of the crew for including it and even more, making it seem like it's no big thing. No one gave it a second thought. The way I take it is that humanity in the B5 universe has turned it's xenophobic tendencies outward.
JMS has if I remember correctly always stated that it was a "trap door" for her but beyond that the fact we got Kosh essentially recording her personality in season 1 to me suggests he intended to use the plot at some stage regardless. The obvious plot to me if AT sticks around seems to be that the recording is used to create her original personality, either right away or sometime latter.

We didn't really get to see a wider reaction to the relationship as Delenn was the only person Ivanova ever told, you'd expect she personally would have no prejudice against it although she never comments on it. Incidently wasn't the original plan for Delenn to have her not just shift to a human hybrid in season 2 but also to shift sex as well? that is starting off as a male character in season 1. That would certainly have been pretty brave, especially if a romance involving her was then going to be a big focus of the show.

The interesting thing with a wider reaction we didn't get to see would be unlike Trek you still have very clear religions in the B5 universe, Ivanova herself is a jew albeit not a highly observant one.

With the morality issue of essentially killing someone by erasing there personality(which is all the more obvious given that this is an future method of execution in B5) I think a better route to take would be to simply limit it to the command staff who were in the know and so could take the risk willingly. As Sheridan points out the knowledge of Lyta's presense isn't known outside the command staff(Talia I assume only picks up on it due to Ivanova's asking about her) so they are the natural people to scan.

I think that situation has potential for great drama as by limiting suspicion you also increase tension among the command staff, not just a small chance it might be you or a friend but a belief it very likely is. A debate whether to do it at all and a decision that it must be done for the greater good then tension rising as each of them is cleared coming down to the last person(I'd assume Ivanova) thinking there likely about to die. Lyta could then test Talia much as she does but without any say so from the others which would perhaps be a good hint at her latter beahvour.

Theres another moral debate as well of what do with the replacement personality as well if it is one of the command staff. Talia going back to the Corps was dangerous but not fatal, one of the those in on Clarks schemes going back means him finding out and very likely everyone involved(Hague as well) at least spending along time in prison and maybe(punishment for treason never revealed was it?) sentenced to death or killed off on the quiet. You could I spose argue that the replacement personally is a "murderer" as its "killed" the original personally so deserves death and as I said I can definitely see Ivanova especially saying something along the lines of "You can test me if you promise me one thing, you'll kill the replacement personality if its me".
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