Telepath War

Psi Cop · Mar 11, 2014

Why did JMS tease us all series long about the telepath war and then not devote any episodes to it? Or a movie? It would have added more to the story than what Thirdspace or River Of Souls did. In fact, apart from In The Beginning, I have tried to jettison the 'movies' from my B5 consciousness altogether. And I don't want to know about books - I wanted to see - on the screen!!

Jan · Mar 11, 2014

The general consensus is that JMS was saving the actual telepath war for a feature film. Whether that's true or not, who knows?

Jan

B5_Obsessed · Mar 11, 2014

JMS reportedly held that back in the hope that there would eventually be a Babylon 5 feature film ( oh how young and naive we were). With a proposed budget of $30-35 million, the cost of an entire season of B5, JMS felt he could deliver a high quality, action driven product while also rewarding the actors with movie-sized paychecks for all their years of service in the hot tub factory. Even though we can pretty much figure how things turned out, along with the fates of some specific characters, it would have been something to see.

Republibot 3.0 · Mar 11, 2014

Psi Cop said:
Why did JMS tease us all series long about the telepath war and then not devote any episodes to it? Or a movie? It would have added more to the story than what Thirdspace or River Of Souls did. In fact, apart from In The Beginning, I have tried to jettison the 'movies' from my B5 consciousness altogether. And I don't want to know about books - I wanted to see - on the screen!!

Well, I don't think there's much disagreement that the Telepath War thing ended up being handled badly in retrospect. [Annnnnnd cue disagreement] It seems like he intened to flash back to it much like B5 flashed back to the Minbari war.

The idea of a movie was mentioned several times, but I don't know how serious it was. The only script for a film that I've ever heard was "The Memory of Shadows," which involved Franklin and some new character running down shadowtech. That doesn't appear to have anything to do with the Telepath war.

Raw Shark · Mar 11, 2014

A script treatment (a partial one, really, just the set-up) appeared in one of the B5 script books, 'War of the Mind' I think it was called. After Lyta's Resistance stepped up their campaign against Psi Corps with terrorist attacks and abductions, the Corps retaliated. The conflict was spreading, and growing out of control. After staying out of it as long as he could manage, Sheridan arranges a peace conference aboard Babylon 5. Both sides have forces in place to wreck the conference and bring the war to B5. Mysterious alien attacks in deep space, too, all the usual good stuff you would expect.

Working out a decent timeline of the war is tricky, from the bits and pieces of information floating around in the series, the books, JMS' comments, etc. So many elements to work with, much more complex than the Earth-Minbari War. Lies, betrayal, sleeper agents, implanted control personalities, secret deals and alliances, alien involvement, Corps motherships, nuclear weapons, concentration camps, a coup in EarthDome, looming genocide... It's quite a vicious cauldron he was constructing, with Earth as the central battlefield.

Raw Shark

"Everyone here knows that the first casualty of war is always the truth."
Capt. Sheridan

Republibot 3.0 · Mar 14, 2014

Raw Shark said:
A script treatment (a partial one, really, just the set-up) appeared in one of the B5 script books, 'War of the Mind' I think it was called. After Lyta's Resistance stepped up their campaign against Psi Corps with terrorist attacks and abductions, the Corps retaliated. The conflict was spreading, and growing out of control. After staying out of it as long as he could manage, Sheridan arranges a peace conference aboard Babylon 5. Both sides have forces in place to wreck the conference and bring the war to B5. Mysterious alien attacks in deep space, too, all the usual good stuff you would expect.

Working out a decent timeline of the war is tricky, from the bits and pieces of information floating around in the series, the books, JMS' comments, etc. So many elements to work with, much more complex than the Earth-Minbari War. Lies, betrayal, sleeper agents, implanted control personalities, secret deals and alliances, alien involvement, Corps motherships, nuclear weapons, concentration camps, a coup in EarthDome, looming genocide... It's quite a vicious cauldron he was constructing, with Earth as the central battlefield.

Raw Shark

"Everyone here knows that the first casualty of war is always the truth."
Capt. Sheridan

Huh. I'd heard a paraphrase of that outline before, but had no idea where it originally came from. Thank you!

Chronolgywise, Lyta left the station in 2262, and said she'd have her forces in place in 2 years, so, 2264. Crusade starts in 2267, and the conflict was said to be 'recent'. So: no more than three years in duration, probably less. Legend of the Rangers too place in 2265, and G'kar describes Lyta as "Gone." There's no sign or mention of war in that movie, so it must have run between 2262 and 2264/65 at the latest. It appears to have been a fairly breif (But obviously pretty bloody) conflict.

Incidentally, I've always questioned the 2267 date for Crusade. In "A Call To Arms," they say the attack took place five years to the day from the formation of the ISA, but the ISA was formed in the end of 2261.

Raw Shark · Mar 14, 2014

I think I'm the one who summarized it before. 'Wars of the Mind' was intended to be a feature film. Looks like there’s a short story in the ‘TV Movies’ script book I didn’t see before.

Patricia Tallman was supposed to be in the Crusade episode 'The Path of Sorrows,' which was to depict Lyta's death, self-detonating using her super-telepath abilities to destroy the hidden Psi Corps headquarters. She wasn't available, so they got someone else to play the captured telepath, and the base appears to be destroyed by a nuclear weapon. Is it known if Lyta was killed during this incident, or was this part re-written because Tallman was unavailable? I think JMS said somewhere that Lyta did not survive the war, but I would think he would want her death to be an on-screen and memorable event.

Although the episode makes it looks like this attack is the final nail in Psi Corps' coffin, I think it's the breaking point, after which the shit really hits the fan. With the Corps' leadership largely eliminated, someone has to step into the role of leader, namely Bester. And then the gloves really come off. Bester would do whatever he felt was necessary to protect the Corps and get the situation back under control. And Bester's solutions tend to be very ugly. One of my absolute favorite parts of B5 was in 'The Corps is Mother, the Corps is Father.' The ending, where Bester's latest protege volunteers to push their prisoner out of the airlock into hyperspace was so chilling, such a perfect example of the cold-blooded nature of the psyche of a Psi Cop. That episode was so weird in its format, kind of clunky, but it really came together at the end. I tend to remember season five for its good parts, of which there were many.

Raw Shark

"Quantity has a quality all its own."
Joseph Stalin

Jan · Mar 14, 2014

Raw Shark said:
Is it known if Lyta was killed during this incident, or was this part re-written because Tallman was unavailable? I think JMS said somewhere that Lyta did not survive the war, but I would think he would want her death to be an on-screen and memorable event.

It's certain that she died during the Telepath war and it *seems* conclusive that this was the incident since in the Crusade Writer's Bible, JMS wrote that she and Lennier die during the TW and the original draft of the script that featured her has a back view of a Minbari fighting with a pike and she calls Lennier's name just before the explosion. That said, since it wasn't actually seen onscreen, if JMS changes his mind, the option's still open.

Although the episode makes it looks like this attack is the final nail in Psi Corps' coffin, I think it's the breaking point, after which the shit really hits the fan. With the Corps' leadership largely eliminated, someone has to step into the role of leader, namely Bester. And then the gloves really come off. Bester would do whatever he felt was necessary to protect the Corps and get the situation back under control. And Bester's solutions tend to be very ugly. One of my absolute favorite parts of B5 was in 'The Corps is Mother, the Corps is Father.' The ending, where Bester's latest protege volunteers to push their prisoner out of the airlock into hyperspace was so chilling, such a perfect example of the cold-blooded nature of the psyche of a Psi Cop. That episode was so weird in its format, kind of clunky, but it really came together at the end. I tend to remember season five for its good parts, of which there were many.

In the unproduced script "Value Judgments" by Fiona Avery, I think there are some flashbacks to Bester's trial for war crimes (or am I thinking of the Psi Corps trilogy? Not certain). I don't recall any details at the moment but the script was published in 'Crusade: Other Voices Volume 2' along with some other goodies.

Jan

Springer · Mar 15, 2014

Republibot 3.0 said:
Incidentally, I've always questioned the 2267 date for Crusade. In "A Call To Arms," they say the attack took place five years to the day from the formation of the ISA, but the ISA was formed in the end of 2261.

A Call to Arms may have taken place in 2266, but don't forget that Racing the Night was set 6-12 months after the attack, which would take us into 2267. It was only after TNT interfered that the first half of Crusade would have taken place in 2266.

Raw Shark · Mar 15, 2014

"Don't write off the Goose until you see the box going into the hole!"
Mad Max

Once the script is changed, then I would say yes, all bets are off. Lyta was written out of the series after 'The Gathering,' with Harlan Ellison joking that she must not have been a very good telepath because she didn't know she was being replaced. But life happens, and Andrea Thompson had to be replaced too, so they got Pat Tallman to come back, thankfully (although I liked them both). With a main character like Lyta, the driving force behind the Telepath War, I would expect her death to be something momentous, and thus captured on film. And most likely, still going out with a bang. To not do so would be a wasted opportunity in storytelling. I thought it was really strange in 'No Country for Old Men' when Josh Brolin's character was suddenly <spoiler alert> killed off-screen. It was confusing and kind of ineffective.

And it still puzzles me that people think the Psi Corps base being destroyed in 'The Path of Sorrows' is on Mars, even though it is surrounded by grass, trees and water! Most human telepaths live on Earth, and the bulk of the Corps' assets and administration would be there as well.

Jan, I think the flashbacks you're referring to are in both 'Value Judgments' and the Psi Corps trilogy. It is mentioned at least once that Bester is considered the worst and most notorious of the Psi Corps war criminals, the one with the most blood on his hands, the hardest one to capture or kill. Once Lyta returned from her adventures with G'kar to launch her campaign to topple Psi Corps, Bester's broad experience would make him the natural choice to lead the Corps' crackdown. And from there, other opportunities would arise for such an ambitious and loyal operative and commander during an ongoing crisis. Corps telepaths would be deserting to the Resistance or being killed off by Resistance terror attacks, intricate organizational systems would be coming apart, new security and combat units needed as never before. Psi Corps would be in chaos, scrambling to adjust. Given its devotion to discipline and hierarchy, it would turn to a strong leader to solve its problems. And they would find Bester, ready and willing to take over the world.

Raw Shark

"All true stories end in death."
Norman Mailer

B5_Obsessed · Mar 17, 2014

And Value Judgments would have picked up that thread, with Bester emerging from his post TW hiding place to command the remaining telepath ships and forces that had escaped detection and leading a final assault, presumably against Earth. It all ends with Garibaldi being notified that Bester has resurfaced.

Republibot 3.0 · Mar 17, 2014

Raw Shark said:
Patricia Tallman was supposed to be in the Crusade episode 'The Path of Sorrows,' which was to depict Lyta's death, self-detonating using her super-telepath abilities to destroy the hidden Psi Corps headquarters. She wasn't available,

According to HER, that's not what happened. She said JMS called her up and said "I got a great script for you," and she said "Send it by" and then she never heard from him again. Availability wasn't an issue.

I heard someone else (Possibly JMS, but I don't remember. It was someone connected to the show, though) say that the network just didn't want to use Pat. They felt it would be confusing to viewers to bring in characters from B5, they thought she was too old, a buncha' stuff.

Both of those stories are probably true. OTOH, the rumors that they actually FILMED Pat's scenes, then cut 'em and re-shot 'em with another actress are certainly untrue.

Raw Shark said:
Although the episode makes it looks like this attack is the final nail in Psi Corps' coffin, I think it's the breaking point, after which the shit really hits the fan.

Eh. It's a theory. My own theory (No more valid than yours) is that we were watching the climax. JMS likes to show us scenes without context so that we only figure them out later on. So we know what we saw, but we don't know what it meant. So I tend to think that was the last nail, and that the Psi Corps movie/trilogy, had it/they ever been made, would have culminated with that.

Republibot 3.0 · Mar 17, 2014

Jan said:
Raw Shark said:

It's certain that she died during the Telepath war and it *seems* conclusive that this was the incident since in the Crusade Writer's Bible, JMS wrote that she and Lennier die during the TW and the original draft of the script that featured her has a back view of a Minbari fighting with a pike and she calls Lennier's name just before the explosion.

Click to expand...

So what the hell happened, anyway? Did Billy Mumy punch JMS' mom in the mouth, or bluster in while JMS was having an unfortunate bowel movement, which he then recorded and played over the PA system? Did he GET the part because he had pictures of JMS naked with a goat, and then get booted once JMS's detectives managed to burn the pictures and negatives?

I ask because, seriously, SOMETHING must have happened to make Mumy fall from favor. He's all over the place in Seasons 1-4, and though he's not the star, he is definitely a shining light, and he just brought so much to every scene. No offence to Stephen Furst, who did a great job, but Mumy was just chocolate-coated chocolate awesome with chocolate filling. And it was obvious that Lannier was being built up for some greater destiny. He had a future in front of him. It was probably something he wouldn't survive, but it was important.

Annnnnnnnnnnd then he's barely in Season 5, and he betrays his own character in a clumsy change of heart/change back scene. And then he's re-cast as an extra and dies with barely a namecheck.

Seriously: What the frack?

I mean, something MUST have happened.

Also, I'm not buying for a minute that the original plan called for him to die in the Telepath war. Dying rescuing Delen and Sheridan, that I could buy, but being bumped off like that in Crusade?

Nope, nope, nope, not buying it. Something musta' happened. JMS gets pissed, he kills your character.

KoshN · Mar 17, 2014

Republibot 3.0 said:
Jan said:

Raw Shark said:

It's certain that she died during the Telepath war and it *seems* conclusive that this was the incident since in the Crusade Writer's Bible, JMS wrote that she and Lennier die during the TW and the original draft of the script that featured her has a back view of a Minbari fighting with a pike and she calls Lennier's name just before the explosion.

Click to expand...

So what the hell happened, anyway? Did Billy Mumy punch JMS' mom in the mouth, or bluster in while JMS was having an unfortunate bowel movement, which he then recorded and played over the PA system? Did he GET the part because he had pictures of JMS naked with a goat, and then get booted once JMS's detectives managed to burn the pictures and negatives?

I ask because, seriously, SOMETHING must have happened to make Mumy fall from favor. He's all over the place in Seasons 1-4, and though he's not the star, he is definitely a shining light, and he just brought so much to every scene. No offence to Stephen Furst, who did a great job, but Mumy was just chocolate-coated chocolate awesome with chocolate filling. And it was obvious that Lannier was being built up for some greater destiny. He had a future in front of him. It was probably something he wouldn't survive, but it was important.

Annnnnnnnnnnd then he's barely in Season 5, and he betrays his own character in a clumsy change of heart/change back scene. And then he's re-cast as an extra and dies with barely a namecheck.

Seriously: What the frack?

I mean, something MUST have happened.

Also, I'm not buying for a minute that the original plan called for him to die in the Telepath war. Dying rescuing Delen and Sheridan, that I could buy, but being bumped off like that in Crusade?

Nope, nope, nope, not buying it. Something musta' happened. JMS gets pissed, he kills your character.

Click to expand...

Don't forget Lyta. Both Lennier AND Lyta were to have died in The Path of Sorrows (Matheson's flashback).

Seems like JMS can hold a grudge forever and be a tad spiteful.

Raw Shark · Mar 18, 2014

Hmm, I haven't heard anything about Bill Mumy and a falling out or anything like that. He was at the Phoenix convention, no problems that I could see. But the circumstances of Andrea Thompson and Claudia Christian were less than ideal, and they were there too.

Yes, just a theory of mine. And much like what you said about JMS showing us a scene and then it turns out to be different from what we think we're seeing, I think he showed us the Psi Corps HQ being obliterated because it looked like the end of the Telepath War. But he loves going back to an event, and revealing something new about it. I love when he does this. I think that something new in this case is that it appears to Matheson and the others in the flashback that the war is over, but it isn't, it's about to get much worse. Psi Corps' leaders have gathered at HQ because they think they're about to crush the Resistance. Instead, they get vaporized, and the Resistance base is deserted. The war is not over. Bester is not there, or he'd be dead. The Corps has telepaths all over Earth, Mars and the colonies, and of course in hyperspace, aboard the Motherships. It is said in the books or someplace that Bester becomes leader of the Corps during the conflict. The death of his superiors would pave the way for him to fill the vacuum. Psi Corps is on the ropes after losing their HQ, and may face a backlash from EarthDome for having let the war get so far out of control. Nuclear weaponry being detonated on the homeworld would shake any confidence that the Corps has a solid plan to end the crisis. The EA President might have a plan to bring the Corps under much stronger supervision, and let normals force a solution to the telepath problem. Bester can't allow that, it would undo generations of work, and put his telepaths in danger. And he has options.

Sheridan mentions something in 'A Call to Arms' about the last time he showed up in Earth space with an alien fleet, referring to his campaign to oust Clark, right? Or, what if this is yet another bit of misdirection, and he's really talking about when he had to take a war fleet to Earth AGAIN, to kick the Corps out of power because Bester has gone around the bend, and his reign of terror is far worse than anything Clark did? Leading a decapitated and weakened Psi Corps, he activates the sleeper agents, takes over Earthforce, moves to crush the Resistance, and seizes control of EarthGov, all at the same time. Telepaths would be in control, and normals would become subjects, just like he said years ago in 'Ship of Tears.' The 'thought police' nightmare would soon be a reality. And once Sheridan found out what had happened, what choice would he have? Can you imagine the Telepath War being resolved without Sheridan leading his coalition into the fray? JMS has described the war as a conflict between Psi Corps and Lyta's Resistance, with normals caught in the middle. Maybe all of the normals.

Raw Shark

"Let's just say I have ambitions, and leave it at that."
Alfred Bester, 'Ship of Tears'

Jan · Mar 18, 2014

Republibot 3.0 said:
Raw Shark said:

Patricia Tallman was supposed to be in the Crusade episode 'The Path of Sorrows,' which was to depict Lyta's death, self-detonating using her super-telepath abilities to destroy the hidden Psi Corps headquarters. She wasn't available,

Click to expand...

According to HER, that's not what happened. She said JMS called her up and said "I got a great script for you," and she said "Send it by" and then she never heard from him again. Availability wasn't an issue.

I heard someone else (Possibly JMS, but I don't remember. It was someone connected to the show, though) say that the network just didn't want to use Pat. They felt it would be confusing to viewers to bring in characters from B5, they thought she was too old, a buncha' stuff.

I think you're mixing up your stories. Bottom line was that she turned it down because of money. They (Babylonian) offered what they could, she felt it wasn't enough. I'd imagine that JMS simply phrased it as an availability matter because it's none of our business.

Republibot 3.0 said:
I ask because, seriously, SOMETHING must have happened to make Mumy fall from favor. He's all over the place in Seasons 1-4, and though he's not the star, he is definitely a shining light, and he just brought so much to every scene. No offence to Stephen Furst, who did a great job, but Mumy was just chocolate-coated chocolate awesome with chocolate filling. And it was obvious that Lannier was being built up for some greater destiny. He had a future in front of him. It was probably something he wouldn't survive, but it was important.

Annnnnnnnnnnd then he's barely in Season 5, and he betrays his own character in a clumsy change of heart/change back scene. And then he's re-cast as an extra and dies with barely a namecheck.

Seriously: What the frack?

I mean, something MUST have happened.

Also, I'm not buying for a minute that the original plan called for him to die in the Telepath war. Dying rescuing Delen and Sheridan, that I could buy, but being bumped off like that in Crusade?

Nope, nope, nope, not buying it. Something musta' happened. JMS gets pissed, he kills your character.

Wow, seriously? It never occurred to you that it might be a budget issue? <sarcasm> Yeah, JMS was so pissed at Mumy that he gave him (and Peter David) a writing assignment for season 5. Boy, howdy, that's sure pissed all right. </sarcasm> And while that script was spiked, there's at least as much evidence that it was because JMS changed his mind about how the Centauri War was going to go as anything else. I know, because *I've got the script* and I've offered the synopsis here a number of times.

You can 'buy' anything you want about the plans for him to die during the Telepath War but it's in black and white in the Crusade Bible. In fact, their paragraphs are one after the other:

Crusade Writer's Bible dated June 18 said:
Lennier, former aide to Delenn, is deceased, killed in action during the telepath crisis in 2265

Lyta Alexander, who helped create a forct to bring down the Psi Corps, was also killed in action during the telepath crisis.

Anyway, remember that Claudia pissed him off plenty but her character didn't get killed off.

KoshN said:
Don't forget Lyta. Both Lennier AND Lyta were to have died in The Path of Sorrows (Matheson's flashback).

Seems like JMS can hold a grudge forever and be a tad spiteful.

So you're saying that Pat Tallman pissed him off somehow? How? We're talking about the FIRST draft of "The Path of Sorrows", written before she was ever even contacted about the part.

And the script specifies that we only see Lennier from the back. There would be no reason to pay for Mumy to have been there at all. Any more than there would have been for Doyle to appear in 'Value Judgments' since Garibaldi would only have been seen from the back, too. Babylonian didn't spend money unnecessarily and having either of those actors for those scenes would have been a complete waste.

Jan

Springer · Mar 18, 2014

Going from what I remember being discussed at the time I also thought Pat's non-involvement was down to money, and how small the role was (I'm sure I remember a quote from her where she wasn't impressed at all with what she was offered). Pat and JMS still work together today – Pat works with him on Studio JMS – so I don't see how they had a falling out. I'll dig through my B5 magazines this evening and see if I can find it.

Regarding Lennier, I remember Mumy saying he wasn't happy with how his character betrayed Sheridan but nothing else. I do find it odd that Lennier ended up dying in the Telepath War as the telepath plot never had anything to do with Lennier, but I guess that is an untold story of how Lennier and Lyta came to work together. All things considered, I think Lennier had plenty of time spent on him over the five seasons. He was only in 6 or 7 episodes in season 1 and the same again in season 2, remember. From season 3 onwards he seemed to get a larger role, mainly helping out on the White Star. In season 5 he had a great little heroic arc when he went off looking for proof that Centauri ships were behind the attacks.

Delenn was certainly training Lennier to replace her one day, but once Lennier fell in love with her, I think his path was set.

Jan · Mar 18, 2014

From JMS: http://jmsnews.com/msg.aspx?id=1-6177

I do recall there being some bitterness on Pat's part as written in the Andy Lane book. But if my memory serves, it might well have had something to do with her then-husband Jeffrey Willerth having been fired from the show. Grudges anybody?

Jan

Republibot 3.0 · Mar 18, 2014

KoshN said:
Don't forget Lyta. Both Lennier AND Lyta were to have died in The Path of Sorrows (Matheson's flashback).

Seems like JMS can hold a grudge forever and be a tad spiteful.

True. Well, I can understand Lyta dying. That seems to be her destiny all along (Note that she wasn't in Sleeping in Light, filmed prior to season 5 where Lyta got entirely too much screen time) And Lannier wasn't there either. I have no problem with them dying eventually, you know, like Sheridan and Londo and G'Kar did. But those served a grander purpose. Lyta too (Evidently).

Lannier feels like he was yanked from the show.

Republibot 3.0 · Mar 18, 2014

Jan said:
I think you're mixing up your stories. Bottom line was that she turned it down because of money. They (Babylonian) offered what they could, she felt it wasn't enough. I'd imagine that JMS simply phrased it as an availability matter because it's none of our business.

Hadn't heard that one, but it works. A bit odd that she wouldn't do it for old times sake, but, hey, everyone makes bum decisions.

Jan said:
Wow, seriously? It never occurred to you that it might be a budget issue? <sarcasm>

Of course it did. We seldom had the entire cast on the show at the same time ever. There was more of that in S5, though. But aren't principle cast actors salaried? I mean, don't they get paid whether they're in an episode or not?

Jan said:
Yeah, JMS was so pissed at Mumy that he gave him (and Peter David) a writing assignment for season 5. Boy, howdy, that's sure pissed all right. </sarcasm> And while that script was spiked, there's at least as much evidence that it was because JMS changed his mind about how the Centauri War was going to go as anything else. I know, because *I've got the script* and I've offered the synopsis here a number of times.

Jan, you've got to calm down. I asked a question in a humorous fashion, that's all. I asked because I don't know. That's why people ask questions: Because they don't know. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong, and I'm happy you know more than I do. That's why I asked the question: So I could know more than I did. And now I do. So thank you, and please calm down.

Jan said:
Crusade Writer's Bible dated June 18 said:

Lennier, former aide to Delenn, is deceased, killed in action during the telepath crisis in 2265

Click to expand...

Yes, I know. I've got it.

Though if I were to follow my "JMS is pissed at Bill" theory through, that wouldn't prove anything as it would have been written at some point AFTER he theoretically got pissed at him.

Jan said:

Anyway, remember that Claudia pissed him off plenty but her character didn't get killed off.

Click to expand...

He couldn't. She'd already filmed "Sleeping in Light."

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