EpDis: GROPOS

One question I have first: Is "ground pounders" an existing term in military usage today, or did JMS make that up?

I thought that there was a good deal of interesting interpersonal action in this episode. The troubled relationship between Franklin Sr. and Jr. was excellently portrayed. Even after they'd talked, at least some, there was still the "Yessir!" reaction, even in a private conversation. What a contrast in their feelings about other races - Sr. is quite frankly very prejudiced, even to the point of xenophobism.

I also liked the dialogue between Ivanova and Dr. Franklin - they rarely interact privately, and this situation gave them an opportunity. I do like the fact that Ivanova is portrayed as relating neutrally to her fellow officers, without any romantic overtones. That makes her believable as a female military officer.

Much has already been posted on the Garibaldi/Dodger relationship, so I won't add to it. I did find her words on her motivation in seeking something to remind her that she's alive thought-provoking.

The death of the three protagonists (yes, and even of the "bad guy" who attacks Delenn) at the end is a very sad moment, both in the reactions of the people on B5 and in actually seeing them lying there. Yes, that does make B5 distinctive - people die. It may be a victory, and many rejoice, but the viewer is not a part of that at the end.

Estelyn said:

One question I have first: Is "ground pounders" an existing term in military usage today, or did JMS make that up?

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It's a common enough term, but not, I think, in the military.

KoshFan said:

Estelyn said:

One question I have first: Is "ground pounders" an existing term in military usage today, or did JMS make that up?

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It's a common enough term, but not, I think, in the military.

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Larry DiTillio, not JMS.

Larry DiTillio wrote in his introduction the the episode in the Other Voices 3 script book that GROPOS is "a futuristic deconstructin of ground poiunders, John Copeland's favorite term for infantry soldiers."

The part of Franklin's father being military was taken from real life as Rick Biggs' father was a Colonel in the Vietnam War. The 'terrible waiting' was something Rick had experienced himself.

Jan

This is one of my favorite episodes. I especially like the ending. Another big plus is Ken Foree.

Some funny thing: I worked in a Hostel. The US Army sent 100 guys one day and another 100 the following day. These guys were sent to Iraq the following week. I did the night shift on the second night. These guys were exactly like the Earth Fore Marines. They even had a big fight.

GKarsEye said:

They can, it's just annoying.

I was of course exaggerating when I said my "respect" for Garibaldi went down. After Sheridan, he's my favorite human character on the show. He just had moment of idiocy. Happens, no big deal.

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Yeah, this is something that, if a guy's male friends found out about it, he'd never hear the end of the razzing. "No man card for you!" But hey, if you're uncomfortable doing the deed, don't.

Having been a ground pounder himself though, you'd think he'd know that all she was looking for was a fun romp in the hay while on liberty in port--just like any soldier or sailor who gets a break from duty in a strange town or port. Guys and gals in uniform, those unattached anyway, probably both sought this commonly in those breaks from the demanding and sometimes terrible days they face for the most part. You'd think early on that he'd know or suspect that's what she was after, and nipped it in the bud if he didn't want to oblige--none of the heavy kissing, or even bringing her to his quarters.

I also wondered about fraternization issues. In present times, in the US military anyway, it is forbidden for an officer (and I think that includes CWOs as they have commissions) and enlisted to have sexual relations, and I think that's even if they aren't in the same command. Officers theoretically have enough pull to influence (through relations with other officers) things for even enlisted personnel under other commands, so the whole thing is frowned upon, with violators subject to the UCMJ and possibly court-martial. Apparently this wasn't as much of an issue with Earthforce.

Cute, ass-kicking fiesty red-head. Amongst the top three hottest chick characters to guest star on B5 (along with Number One and Franklin's singer).

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Oh hell yes. I'd have forgotten all the other bullshit and had my fun too, if I were him. It was kind of painful to watch his hesitation and agonizing....

Here's something that I don't like about the episode: the battle had no significance to the overall story. I must have seen the entire series half a dozen times and I don't even remember what they were fighting about.

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They were aiding an alien government against rebels on its planet in a civil war, to gain military concessions from that government in their sector.

It kind of gave us a look at what Earth was doing foreign-policy wise--courting powers to gain advantages from them and expand their interests. We don't know the circumstances of their civil war, but we might suspect that we weren't aiding "the good guys" therein--they could have had the same kinds of grievances that the rebels from Earth's colonies had, and their government might have been just as brutal or corrupt. Anyway, we know Earth isn't slinking back to isolationism (as much of the emerging party line is implying), but still poking its nose militarily where it sees advantage.

I always respected Garabaldi for that decision... he did the right thing. Sex isn't just sex for most/some people.

You may be talking to the wrong crowd here, Demon.

But yes, B5 was always a bit more realistic than many sci-fi shows. This is no exception. I admired JMS quite a bit for making that decision about the character. But Garibaldi, for all his bluster, was rather fragile at that point in his life. And he was trying to make more responsible decisions.

hypatia said:

You may be talking to the wrong crowd here, Demon.

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Meh... it happens.

Your side...
My side...
Your side...
My side...
Your side...
My side...

Couldn't resist a Farscape moment.

Yeah, awkward social misstep on the part of Garibaldi toward his "date", but those happen. My trouble isn't his saying "no", but not understanding what she wanted (just a one-night stand) enough to either decide to go for it or steer her away while the night was still young. But again, we all make those kinds of misreads and mistakes, sometimes--God knows I have, lots of times.

I think a lot of guys have trouble with the idea that a gal can be just as much of a horndog as the best of them. They think women are more fragile and easily hurt by casual sex--some, lots, of them can be, but not all. She seemed put off that Garibaldi seemed to think she was. She certainly ain't no frail damsel who gets the vapors, and she makes sure every guy she comes around knows that too.

Be very interesting to know if your comment is written from a male or a female perspective.

Definitely from the female perspective. And we are in the extreme minority around here.

Well FWIW, one of my big life lessons has been to dispel the myth I was brought up with that women are delicate, emotionally and even physically frail or weak or needy. I know it's obvious to say that people are individuals but I kinda had to figure that out a little bit for myself.

rjb said:

Be very interesting to know if your comment is written from a male or a female perspective.

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Male, who has known a few females like Dodger. Plus knowing that a lot of the feminist movement of the last several decades was an assertion that females were just as much sexual beings as males, and sometimes seek sex, like males sometimes, just for the sake of it. Before that time, this was largely denied, and females were placed on an almost-impossible pedestal of "womanly virtue" (and punished horribly by society when they wouldn't stand on that pedestal).

I don't want to get into any more trouble than I might already be here, just saying that it is still somewhat common to think of females as the more passive of the species sexually, when clearly at least some are not.

Edit: and the post immediately above, what he said.

As much as there are plenty of women who want sex for the sake of sex proving women aren't uniformly the stereotype of a virtuous maiden, there are conversely men that aren't always sex for the sake of sex. As such, I don't find it unrealistic that Garibaldi would make the choice he did in the episode. And just because he made such a choice in this instance does not mean he wouldn't choose differently at different points in his life.

hypatia said:

Definitely from the female perspective.

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:devil::angel: OOPS.

Alioth said:

rjb said:

Be very interesting to know if your comment is written from a male or a female perspective.

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Male, who has known a few females like Dodger. Plus knowing that a lot of the feminist movement of the last several decades was an assertion that females were just as much sexual beings as males, and sometimes seek sex, like males sometimes, just for the sake of it. Before that time, this was largely denied, and females were placed on an almost-impossible pedestal of "womanly virtue" (and punished horribly by society when they wouldn't stand on that pedestal).

I don't want to get into any more trouble than I might already be here, just saying that it is still somewhat common to think of females as the more passive of the species sexually, when clearly at least some are not.

Edit: and the post immediately above, what he said.

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Welcome aboard and don't worry, you're not in trouble. Amazing how we can still disect a relatively small plotline from 2 episodes 3 years apart, and find new insights.:thumbsup: B5 RULES!!!!:devil: If women were "passive" there would be no lesbians: as several neighbors and lots of friends of mine can attest: That aint the case.:devil: Substitute "passion" for "sex": how does that change the equation? Not only are men and women different, so are different men and women. As the oldest son of a widow with 6 kids (Dad died when I was 16) I became a practical feminist at a young age.

vacantlook said:

As much as there are plenty of women who want sex for the sake of sex proving women aren't uniformly the stereotype of a virtuous maiden, there are conversely men that aren't always sex for the sake of sex. As such, I don't find it unrealistic that Garibaldi would make the choice he did in the episode. And just because he made such a choice in this instance does not mean he wouldn't choose differently at different points in his life.

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Garibaldi was an Italian Catholic dedicated to food and family.:thumbsup: His arc starts and ends with Lise, wife. He was infatuated with Talia (real life married, and divorced) but she turned out to be ... different. :devil: I cant recall any intimate relations Garibaldi had, or even implied. Lise divorced him: He never divorced her. She got a fortune.:devil: In the end it all worked out. End of morality play.

Alioth said:

Yeah, awkward social misstep on the part of Garibaldi toward his "date", but those happen. My trouble isn't his saying "no", but not understanding what she wanted (just a one-night stand) enough to either decide to go for it or steer her away while the night was still young. But again, we all make those kinds of misreads and mistakes, sometimes--God knows I have, lots of times.

I think a lot of guys have trouble with the idea that a gal can be just as much of a horndog as the best of them. They think women are more fragile and easily hurt by casual sex--some, lots, of them can be, but not all. She seemed put off that Garibaldi seemed to think she was. She certainly ain't no frail damsel who gets the vapors, and she makes sure every guy she comes around knows that too.

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While I agree with you, I had a different take on this encounter. In WWII films, it was fairly common to hint that the guy going off to war got a one night stand from a girl, or even a quick marriage, like it was her duty. Of course, this was conveyed subtly in those days. Here we have a role reversal, with Dodger being a woman soldier, going of to quite possibly die, and wanting a fling before she goes. But Garibaldi is too self absorbed to realize it.

Sooo, I return after three years to continue posting to episode threads and when I get to the first one I haven't yet posted in, it turns out it's ten pages long

To jump right into the most-discussed topic (which made me a little uncomfortable!), I don't think Garibaldi was leading anyone on! People absolutely should be able to change their minds at ANY point during a sexual encounter, without being labeled a "tease" or anything along those lines. Sure, if I were Dodger, I too would be annoyed. I mean, here she is thinking it's super obvious she's only there for a very short while, doesn't know where she's going to be tomorrow, clearly looking for something quick, no-strings-attached, and this guy starts talking about relationships and stuff. Take WHAT slowly? There is nothing TO take slowly! But, if that was never explicitly stated, there's no way for the other person to really know that. It would be a really good idea to have that kind of conversation beforehand, and maybe the "hey, let's slow down here for a second" was Garibaldi kind of trying to have that conversation, but tempers flared and it got cut short.

Also, I don't think Garibaldi is any less of a man / heterosexual man for not wanting casual sex. I'm assuming no one here actually believes that, but I feel like I should explicitly point it out because ... Yikes.

This discussion did make me realize that this episode showed something quite progressive, considering it aired in the mid-nineties. Nowadays you might occasionally see a female TV character who unapologetically asks for/enjoys casual sex (Gillian Anderson's character on The Fall comes to mind), but back then? I don't think so. Sure, Dodger is not a main character, and really only exists to explore Garibaldi's issue, but still. She's there, doing her thing. How has this never occurred to me before?

Other stuff:

- "Everyone on B5 has dad issues" is an exaggeration, but this is definitely a recurring theme. Aside from the Sofie/Susan Ivanova relationship, which is quite important to the story, we don't really "meet" anyone's mother. Lots of fathers, though! Those relationships aren't all problematic, but there's a few that definitely are. This particular problematic father/son relationship between General and Doctor Franklin sure is an interesting one .... General Franklin calls out Steven's lack of respect, but he speaks to him in a rather disrespectful way himself. This situation is of course complicated by the fact that he actually is his son's commanding officer as well, but I get the impression that he's so used to being in command that that's just his natural state. I image that's kind of how Steven grew up. Dad's certainly got some xenophobia going on .. and I get that it's played up because we're only seeing this character in this one episode, so it's not like it could be subtly suggested over time, but still this makes me kind of amazed that they sort of "make up" at the end of the episode, because it seems their views are so diametrically opposed. But then, I guess we all tend to accept a lot more from family than we would strangers.

- I don't know anything about present-day military, so I can't comment on all the things people have noted are "wrong." Then again, it's the 23rd century, maybe it's not wrong then! (I realize it's a lot easier to accept that sort of thing when it's not one's own particular field of expertise that is being portrayed ... And yes, a LOT of things in the B5 universe are suspiciously similar to the late 20th century US, so there's a good chance those military things would, too!)

- "The galaxy is changing and Babylon 5 must change with it. Earth must keep pace." This is one of those episodes that is mostly non-main storyline character stuff. But the main storyline is always there in the details, anyway. So it is here. This military operation is typical Earth Gov stuff. It fits exactly with everything else that is going on.

- That guy Kliest is super creepy and scary. What exactly would he and his buddies have done to Delenn if Dodger hadn't intervened? (And good on Dodger for doing that!). Why is this not made into a bigger deal than it is? That dude is dangerous! It's like his squad mates just sort of accept that about him "oh yea, that's just Kliest, he's an asshole," meanwhile dude is assaulting and possibly murdering people left and right. And why is station security not making it an issue?

- Speaking of which, it creeps me out how the crew is laughing about "a dancer missing from the Dark Star." I guess it's funny because they're assuming she voluntarily left, but uhhhhh ... maybe like, look into it? There's all these strange dudes sexually harassing women in plain view, it'd be nice if you maybe cared about their safety?

- As someone else said, why can't the troops stay on their own ship(s)?? "They can't sit on the transports the whole time" Why not? I mean, that's where they live otherwise, isn't it? It takes a while to get between places, so there must be enough room for them to sleep/bathe/hang out on those ships.

- Had to laugh at Ivanova trying not to laugh when General Franklin says "so much for genetics" to Garibaldi.

- Why didn't anyone tell Keffer there were other people staying in his quarters??? What a shock that would be. Also LOL at those giant key cards. Saw them in "A Race Through Dark Places" also.

Lennier's Tears said:

This discussion did make me realize that this episode showed something quite progressive, considering it aired in the mid-nineties. Nowadays you might occasionally see a female TV character who unapologetically asks for/enjoys casual sex (Gillian Anderson's character on The Fall comes to mind), but back then? I don't think so. Sure, Dodger is not a main character, and really only exists to explore Garibaldi's issue, but still. She's there, doing her thing. How has this never occurred to me before?

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The show was pretty progressive when it came to feminism in general. The relationship between Talia and Ivanova is about as far as they could go in those days. They even mention a female pope at one point. What's nice is that they show Dodger as liking casual sex and it doesn't have any repercussions. It doesn't get her in trouble in any way. That's actually very progressive.

Lennier's Tears said:

- As someone else said, why can't the troops stay on their own ship(s)?? "They can't sit on the transports the whole time" Why not? I mean, that's where they live otherwise, isn't it? It takes a while to get between places, so there must be enough room for them to sleep/bathe/hang out on those ships.

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Never been in the military but methinks that when the opportunity for R&R arrises, you don't deny that to your troops. Especially just before they're going into combat. So the choice was to either move them onto B5 or to keep shuttles going back and forth to all the troop-ships constantly after allowing a very few hours of R&R to each GROPO. I think General Franklin made the right choice.

Something to consider is that the troops sitting on the transports would be sitting in zero gravity. So seeing as they are GROUND POUNDERS prolonged zero gravity exposure might be a problem when they are expected to go into a gravity situation fighting. I've often wished they'd done a little more exposition on how people got along on zero gravity ship assignments for long periods of time.

And personally I think JMS blew a HUGE opportunity for General Franklin to be Doctor Franklin's Mommy issue. But seriously I think it was a missed opportunity not having that character be a woman. It would have been a good way to get another mom involved in one of the main character's back stories.