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Old March 16th 05, 16:18   #8
First One
GKarsEye's Avatar
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: New York
Posts: 16,754
Re: The Minbari suck

-- Should its emperor be assassinated, would the Centauri Republic refrain from war?
Yes, if it were politically beneficial.
The Centauri are extremely practical, politically savvy and selfish.
Cartagia was assassinated, and so many probably knew who did it. If it was a popular emperor who was similarly assassinated, heads would roll. But everyone kind of forgot about it because they were really happy that mad man was gone.

-- Should its president be assassinated, would Earth Alliance refrain from war?
Its president was assassinated, and when there was action to investigate who did it, it was cut, and the System and people accepted it. The ensuing civil war cited the assassination as only one reason, but that's not why Sheridan went to war- the reason was the slaughter of innocent civilians.

The crew of the Earth convoy which followed orders to shoot first... also knew it was a mistake.
Not at the time. They saw an alien war ship with open gun ports.

..but it does indict the Humans for cultivating irrational, hazardous and possibly self-destructive methods of first contact.
True. But in this case, the weight of responsibility of proper behavior falls on the part with more advancement and experience. Humans were very new to this game and the Minbari were old hats. They should be better at first contact. Dukhat understood the jaw-dropping stupidity of approaching with open gun ports. it's amazing that this isn't in the Minbari First Contact Handbook.

Entirely correct. Stopping hostilities took them *far* too long. But now consider how many human societies... would have stopped instead of the Minbari? Very few.

In identical situation... most human societies would have been overtaken by desire for retribution... and two diseases of the mind: patriotism and obedience.
So? Others being bad doesn't excuse them for being bad.
And yes, wars are started, but there's a difference between a war and one party obliterating the existence of another much weaker than them, slaughtering defenseless warships and refusing surrender.

I commend the attitude. Now... may I remind you... that some Minbari surely *did* exactly that. Your blanket condemnation of them... is hence quite baseless.
Yeah, when, at the verge of complete annihilation, and only when it met some abstract religious thing (Sinclair had a Minbari "soul")

However, a cult of personality is *not* religion... and in fact... the Earth-Minbari war was completely devoid of religious incitement to violence.
This is simply not true. Dukhat was a religious figure. The religious caste declared it a "holy war," Delenn admitted as much. If that's not a "religious incitement to violence," I don't know what is.

Any society that can summon religion as a justification for unspeakable acts of horror is inherently immoral.

Delenn too lacked long-term desire for violence. She did desire retribution... but that disappeared quickly. Others too realized that Minbari had nothing to gain from eradicating Humans.
But they proceeded anyway. I think that makes it even worse.

Delenn can sometimes be... fairly decisive and uncompromizing. Without such ability, she could not possibly be a politician. But we need examples to compare them. Will you present some?
I did- condeming humanity for the actions of Ivanova's Home Guard ex-boyfriend. Hautingly criticising other groups for the faults yours possesses in equal degree is the height of arrogance.

Your statement, lacking a qualifier... implies that every Minbari does. That is simply untrue.
Most of them do. Same difference. This goes back to the "you can't generalise" argument. Yes, often you can, that's what the disciplines of the social sciences are based on.

In their warfare, Minbari were respecting basic decency... and not attacking civilian population, despite having every capability of doing it.
A mission to destroy all of humanity is not basic decency.

Should Humans have attacked Minbari civilians, Minbari could have started responding in kind. Franklin knew it would have *notably* complicated defusing the conflict.

He decided that he would err on the safe side... and the central command could find a swamp where to ski. Such a decision was his undeniable personal right, and he should not have been incarcerated for that.
You're treating this is a typical little political war. It wasn't- it was the preservation of a planet's people.

PS- I think it's so cute that this is like a real argument
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