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glamourweaver May 4th 07 10:13

Theory on "In the Beginning"
 
Its all confusion, faulty intel, & literary-liscence on Emperor Mollari's part. Nothing in his story can be assumed on its face to be B5 canon & that might be intentional...

- In his tale the Rangers have existed continuously, despite Naroon having made clear in Season 3 when Delenn took command that the Religious Caste recomissioned them after centuries & it had always been the Warrior Caste who oversaw them in the past.

- Satai Hadronn of the Religious Caste has become Satai Coplann of the Warrior Caste. (faulty Centauri intel, or the Emperor getting details confused)

- There is no way that Sheridan, Franklin & G'Kar had met before (its explicit at the beginning of Season 2... the same episode where we meet Satai Hadronn of the Religious Caste.... that Sheridan is new to Franklin). That event may have occured with G'Kar and 2 humans; or Franklin another human & a Narn; but there is no way it was the 3 of them.

- Gonya having served under Sheridan would have come up considering how close he & Cmd. Ivanovah were

- Mollari had been a weak joke in the Royal Court. There was no way he could have ordered a strike like that. The strike could have happened & he could have been in on it; but I think he was assuming more responsibility than he was due out of a general guilt complex relating to his... other deeds.

Most glaring of all... Emperor Mollari II states he cared for all four of his wives... this more than anything else is the most blatant signal to the fans to take everything he says with a grain of salt.

KoshFan May 4th 07 13:35

Re: Theory on "In the Beginning"
 
Well, Londo did have four wives, but his first wife was a dancer he married when he was young, and his family made him divorce her. JMS says that Adira reminds Londo a lot of that first girl.

Sheridan and Ivanova were indeed close, so it did come up. But not on screen. Because there was no real reason for it to come up during the show; heck, they may have talked about it together on Io before we met either one of them.

Also, -- mild SPOILERS for the Centauri Prime trilogy -- when Londo has Sheridan and Delenn imprisoned on Centauri Prime, he talks to Delenn about it, so when he recounts the story to the Centauri kids, that part at least was fresh in his mind.

Clever idea, but I think most of the flaws you pointed out are JMS's "mistakes."

RMcD May 4th 07 18:21

Re: Theory on "In the Beginning"
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by glamourweaver (Post 296397)
- Satai Hadronn of the Religious Caste has become Satai Coplann of the Warrior Caste. (faulty Centauri intel, or the Emperor getting details confused)

That's interesting. Obviously his name changed (although nobody ever actually called him that in Points of Departure or All Alone in the Night, IIRC, it was only used in the credits). I hadn't noticed him changing caste, but yeah, I guess Kalain does strongly imply that he's religious caste, whereas Dukhat makes it clear that Coplann is warrior caste. On the other hand, maybe it's not meant to be the same guy. He does bear a passing resemblance to Na'Kal in Fall of Night and Walkabout, and General Na'Tok in late S5, for example, and of course there's no connection whatsoever between them :D

Quote:

Originally Posted by glamourweaver (Post 296397)
- There is no way that Sheridan, Franklin & G'Kar had met before (its explicit at the beginning of Season 2... the same episode where we meet Satai Hadronn of the Religious Caste.... that Sheridan is new to Franklin).

That's not quite true. Ivanova asks him what he thinks of their new captain, and he replies that he hasn't seen too much of him yet, but what he has seen he likes. That's not totally incompatible with their having met briefly before (maybe it's even what he's referring to).

Quote:

Originally Posted by glamourweaver (Post 296397)
- Gonya having served under Sheridan would have come up considering how close he & Cmd. Ivanovah were

This is stretching a point a bit, but there's more than one Hyperion class cruiser in that battlegroup, and although Ganya is clearly communicating with the Lexington, it's not clear which ship he actually launches from.

Quote:

Originally Posted by glamourweaver (Post 296397)
- Mollari had been a weak joke in the Royal Court. There was no way he could have ordered a strike like that. The strike could have happened & he could have been in on it; but I think he was assuming more responsibility than he was due out of a general guilt complex relating to his... other deeds.

At the time he was an attache to the Centauri delegation on Earth, which might have given him some clout? Perhaps his luck changed and he fell out of favour after that? And the fact that he wasn't popular with Turhan and the Royal Court doesn't alter the fact that he did seem to be known to the Royal Court, not to mention head of one of the oldest noble houses in the Republic. Or, going along with your theory, maybe he's just feeling bloody-minded and wants to load some more guilt on himself, so he's exagerrating his position and his influence (although Lyssa did ask for a true story).

Quote:

Originally Posted by glamourweaver (Post 296397)
Most glaring of all... Emperor Mollari II states he cared for all four of his wives... this more than anything else is the most blatant signal to the fans to take everything he says with a grain of salt.

Yeah, that one I can't explain. All very Keyser Söze..

Peter David's novelisation of In the Beginning might shed some more light on this, although it's been too long since I've read it to remember, and I don't know how canon it's considered to be..

vacantlook May 4th 07 18:36

Re: Theory on "In the Beginning"
 
Quote:

- Satai Hadronn of the Religious Caste has become Satai Coplann of the Warrior Caste. (faulty Centauri intel, or the Emperor getting details confused)
The way I like to look at something like this, in my own personal fannish way, is to say that Hedronn and Coplann were simply twins and one jumped castes in the following of his heart (or however jumping castes was explained in a couple different episodes).

Galahad May 4th 07 19:05

Re: Theory on "In the Beginning"
 
Or maybe the Minbari change their names in line with their three languages, if they change caste.

Joseph DeMartino May 4th 07 19:24

Re: Theory on "In the Beginning"
 
General critique: You keep taking everything the characters say as literal truth. Why? People lie to others and themselves all the time. What a character believes to be the case from his own point of view, or to be essentially true, is not always the literal truth.

- In his tale the Rangers have existed continuously, despite Naroon having made clear in Season 3 when Delenn took command that the Religious Caste recomissioned them after centuries & it had always been the Warrior Caste who oversaw them in the past.

A perfect example. This is Neroon's version of history. In fact, the Rangers have existed continuously for over 1,000 years, they were founded and commanded by Valen, who was not of the Warrior Caste, and they only later came to be dominated by the Warriors (who also forbade the Workers from serving.) The Warriors eventually withdrew from the Rangers, which in their eyes effectively put them out of business. But the organization continued to function with little funding or attention until it was revived (with Religious, Worker and Human members) under Sinclair. (To Dream in the City of Sorrows)

- Satai Hadronn of the Religious Caste has become Satai Coplann of the Warrior Caste. (faulty Centauri intel, or the Emperor getting details confused)

Minbari can't have twins? (Jeez, JMS reused an actor. He likes to do that, you know. ;)) Next you'll be complaining about "Mr. Morden" being aboard B5 in 2257.

- There is no way that Sheridan, Franklin & G'Kar had met before (its explicit at the beginning of Season 2... the same episode where we meet Satai Hadronn of the Religious Caste.... that Sheridan is new to Franklin). That event may have occured with G'Kar and 2 humans; or Franklin another human & a Narn; but there is no way it was the 3 of them.

We never see Franklin's first meeting with Sheridan in season two, and I don't think we see G'Kar's. By the time Ivanova is talking to Franklin in "Earhart's", Franklin has already met the new captain and Ivanova is asking what he thinks. Is Franklin supposed to say, "Gee, he hasn't changed a bit since he and I went on a highly-classified mission twelve years ago. What mission? Sorry, still can't talk about that."?

Except in private, and maybe not even then, none of the three would have reason to discuss that event, which is almost certainly still considered a secret by the Human, Narn, and Minbari governments. (I doubt the Centauri government ever knew about it. See below.) It would not be in anybody's interest to reveal that there was a failed peace mission that might have saved hundreds of thousands of live but that it was derailed (as they probably still believe) by fanatics on one side or the other. Besides, they served on one covert mission that spanned a couple of days a dozen years before. They'd probably remember the mission, pretty clearly, but they might barely remember one other at all.

- Gonya having served under Sheridan would have come up considering how close he & Cmd. Ivanovah were

Why? Sheridan and Ivanova served together at the transfer point off Io long enough to become very close friends years before either came to B5. Whatever memories of Ganya they had to share would have been shared then. Also it isn't like we've seen every moment of interaction between Sheridan and Ivanova during the the three years they spent on B5. Maybe every year they got together on Ganya's birthday or the anniversary of his death and toasted his memory. Just because JMS never got around to telling that story doesn't mean it didn't happen or make this a "mistake".

- Mollari had been a weak joke in the Royal Court. There was no way he could have ordered a strike like that. The strike could have happened & he could have been in on it; but I think he was assuming more responsibility than he was due out of a general guilt complex relating to his... other deeds.

Actually there is no indication that Mollari accompanied the ships. The Royal Court may have considered him a joke, but his family was still wealthy and influential, certainly among the lesser nobility and the ordinary people. He could not have exercised military authority, but there's no reason he couldn't have persuaded some relative who thought the Centauri could win advantage by distrupting a Narn-Human arms deal to send a few ships "off the books" on an unofficial and completely covert mission.

Most glaring of all... Emperor Mollari II states he cared for all four of his wives... this more than anything else is the most blatant signal to the fans to take everything he says with a grain of salt.

As JMS himself has said, that's how Londo prefers to remember his feelings near the end of his life. Who are we to contradict him? Certainly he was fond of Mariel and came to be very fond of Timov before the end (cf. the Centauri Trilogy.) Hardly the "signal" you imagine.

Regards,

Joe

Boxie May 4th 07 21:35

Re: Theory on "In the Beginning"
 
Quote:

JMS reused an actor
That's exactly what I was thinking....

glamourweaver May 4th 07 22:41

Re: Theory on "In the Beginning"
 
I accept the point on the Rangers, but I've got to disagree with the "he just reused an actor" point on Hedronn/Coplann. If it was just a case of two Minbari, I'd agree (as with the two Narn that Robin Sachs played), but these are two SATAI!

We see the "choose quickly, we are fast running out of candidates" clip in the Season 2 Premier with Satai Hedronn. We aren't supposed to assume that's him? The entire reason (beyond his impressive talent) that Robin Sachs is in that role in ItB is to work with that clip.... they unfortunately overlooked the surrounding context of the clip in the episode it originally came from.





I just watched the DVD commentary on ItB, & JMS directly admits the G'Kar/Sheridan/Franklin plotline doesn't make a great deal of sense, but that he needed to use the series character for a major plotpoint, so there you are.

I think continuity is best served if we take that confession of JMS (which I completely understand & don't fault him for in the slightest) and apply it to Londo, our in-setting storyteller. He's taking certain liscences to make the story more continuous & interesting for the children.

Recoil May 5th 07 05:13

Re: Theory on "In the Beginning"
 
I'll agree with that. Many here have stated using those three never made sense, and since JMS himself says as much...well...whatever makes you happy I guess. :)

Alluveal May 5th 07 05:59

Re: Theory on "In the Beginning"
 
Quote:

- Satai Hadronn of the Religious Caste has become Satai Coplann of the Warrior Caste. (faulty Centauri intel, or the Emperor getting details confused)
Pfft, all Minbari look alike. (grin)

Joseph DeMartino May 6th 07 08:13

Re: Theory on "In the Beginning"
 
Quote:

I just watched the DVD commentary on ItB, & JMS directly admits the G'Kar/Sheridan/Franklin plotline doesn't make a great deal of sense,
Of course, that isn't quite what JMS said on the commentary track:

"One of the dangers in doing a prequel is trying to make people who hadn't met before meet. And all the fans said, 'We never heard about Franklin having gone on this mission with Sheridan before. They never mentioned it in dialogue.' And I thought, well people don't normally tend to say when they met for the first time, and if it was a classified mission they wouldn't talk about it freely. So it is a bit of a stretch that he and G'Kar and Franklin would all meet at this point would meet, and never mention it again, ever. But I had to do something. It was two o'clock in the morning and I had to do something."

So while he does kid around about the situation, he also sets forth a perfectly good justification for doing what he did. That's hardly a "direct admission" that what he did doesn't make much sense. It is a little convenient, but it doesn't contradict anything we actually see and here on screen. And JMS's commentaries (like his script book intros) can't always be taken as gospel. His memory sometimes plays tricks on him. (On the ItB commentary he refers to TNT commissioning the TV movie after they picked the show up for its fifth season. In fact, ItB and Thirdspace were commissioned after TNT bought the rerun rights to the first four seasons, and the agreement to pick up year five didn't come until well after both had been shot. He also asks Mike Vejar if J. Patrick McCormack - Gen. Lefcourt - didn't also appear in the series in season 5 as a general who talks to Sheridan. McCormack, of course, played Lefcourt at the end of season 4 where he commanded the forces defending Mars in the Civil War. And in Volume 11 of the script books he confuses the U.S. Constitution and the Declaration of Independence.)

Regards,

Joe

Bazza August 12th 17 21:05

Re: Theory on "In the Beginning"
 
Sorry for the necro, but just watched ITB and couldn't find any info about Delenn meeting her future husband during the Earth-Minbari war. Is this an alternate timeline?

Looney August 13th 17 02:44

Re: Theory on "In the Beginning"
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Bazza (Post 459088)
Sorry for the necro, but just watched ITB and couldn't find any info about Delenn meeting her future husband during the Earth-Minbari war. Is this an alternate timeline?

Not quite sure how you mean it, but there is a scene where Sheridan and Franklin are captured by the Minbari and brought before Delenn before execution. They don't actually meet because he never even sees her face. I myself have often wondered about the fact that she never mentioned the incident to him in the show. You know it could have gone like, "Hey you know that time during the Earth-Minbari war when you and Franklin were captured. You were going to be interrogated and executed, but then you repeated what Lenonn told you to say and your life was spared. THAT WAS ME!" :guffaw: I mean I understand that ITB was shot around the same time as Season 5, so it is just an oversight that she never mentions it during Season 5, but it sure would have been great to hear her explain it during Season 5 - you know like a wedding night story. :lol: ;) :lol:

Bazza August 13th 17 16:40

Re: Theory on "In the Beginning"
 
Even if they didn't see her, they did speak so you woulda thought something should have come up in conversation like

How a Minbari word taught by the dying breath of the ranger leader saved his life during the war. Delenn would say how he knew him and looked up to him.

Or how much Delenn sounded like the 'Minbari woman' in charge and she would chuckle and say ....

Looney August 14th 17 15:11

Re: Theory on "In the Beginning"
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Bazza (Post 459098)
Or how much Delenn sounded like the 'Minbari woman' in charge and she would chuckle and say ....

In fairness I believe almost twelve years had past between their meetings. I doubt he would remember exactly what her voice sounded like. She didn't say much and what she did say was spoken in authoritative Minbari. It would have been nice to mention the meeting at some point during Season 5, but JMS can't think of everything. :lol:

All kidding aside something like this would have helped cement their relationship. One weakness of B5 is that the story is told within the constraints of a television show format. They really can't show you everything and one thing we definitely don't get established well enough is the relationship growth between Delenn and Sheridan. I mean they do kind of go on their first date in Season Two, A Race Through Dark Places, but for the most part them falling in love as it is shown to us feels rushed to me. It isn't some awful thing that ruins the show by any means, it is just a slightly noticeable flaw. When they start to get emotional toward each other it just seems a bit like did I miss something. I look at it as another one of my "Read Between The Episodes" moments. Remember you can imagine that other things happen on the station in the time that passes between episodes, so maybe Sheridan and Delenn actually spend quite a bit of time together when we're not seeing them on screen. :thumbsup:

PendekarQiuQiu October 4th 17 07:40

Re: Theory on "In the Beginning"
 
asd

b5historyman November 27th 17 12:30

Re: Theory on "In the Beginning"
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by glamourweaver (Post 296397)
Its all confusion, faulty intel, & literary-liscence on Emperor Mollari's part. Nothing in his story can be assumed on its face to be B5 canon & that might be intentional...

- In his tale the Rangers have existed continuously, despite Naroon having made clear in Season 3 when Delenn took command that the Religious Caste recomissioned them after centuries & it had always been the Warrior Caste who oversaw them in the past.

- Satai Hadronn of the Religious Caste has become Satai Coplann of the Warrior Caste. (faulty Centauri intel, or the Emperor getting details confused)

- There is no way that Sheridan, Franklin & G'Kar had met before (its explicit at the beginning of Season 2... the same episode where we meet Satai Hadronn of the Religious Caste.... that Sheridan is new to Franklin). That event may have occured with G'Kar and 2 humans; or Franklin another human & a Narn; but there is no way it was the 3 of them.



- Gonya having served under Sheridan would have come up considering how close he & Cmd. Ivanovah were




- Mollari had been a weak joke in the Royal Court. There was no way he could have ordered a strike like that. The strike could have happened & he could have been in on it; but I think he was assuming more responsibility than he was due out of a general guilt complex relating to his... other deeds.



Most glaring of all... Emperor Mollari II states he cared for all four of his wives... this more than anything else is the most blatant signal to the fans to take everything he says with a grain of salt.

To answer your points:

The Rangers were charged in 1261 (after the end of the Shadow war) to watch for the Shadows return and intelligence gathering activities. They weren't actually commissioned to fight again. And as Lenonn pointed out there were few of them now most were getting old and they were seriously underfunded.

Coplann and Hedronn are one and the same. Coplann used an alias while parading as a functionary from the Minbari Ministry of Culture while investigating Delenn's status for the Council.


How do you know? It was a classified mission and as pointed out you never get to see G'Kar and Sheridan's first meeting.


It's Ganya Ivanov. And does every officer aboard a ship know the names of all the crew? How do you know that Ivanova and Sheridan didn't talk about Ganya while they were posted to Io.


Londo as far as I recall is not directly responsible for ordering the strike, he was certainly responsible for providing faulty intelligence.


Grasping at straws aren't we, here's Londo just gone through 20 years of crap and only an hour or so away from his death, why shouldn't he have reconsidered his feelings?

You're just nit picking for the sake of trying to prove your point when most of this has already been answered

Looney November 30th 17 16:29

Re: Theory on "In the Beginning"
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by b5historyman (Post 459857)
Coplann and Hedronn are one and the same. Coplann used an alias while parading as a functionary from the Minbari Ministry of Culture while investigating Delenn's status for the Council.

THANK YOU! I was reading through this thread again trying to remember what was going on with this specific point and you just cleared it up. He was Satai traveling incognito. I knew there was something as I was reading through the thread. My guess is that Delenn didn't use an alias because if the truth ever came out it would look VERY bad; where as Coplann is exactly as you stated and not permanently assigned to B5. Thank you so much for bring that up because I could not remember what was going on there, but I knew I knew the correct answer and you provided it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by b5historyman (Post 459857)
How do you know? It was a classified mission and as pointed out you never get to see G'Kar and Sheridan's first meeting.

I agree and I don't even think it requires mentioning that it was a classified mission. I can't think of one moment in the show where it seems awkward. I think it fit brilliantly. They never specifically mention meeting each other before, but we also don't see every interaction these characters have and they never specifically mention that they've never met before. If I read between the lines I can imagine the three of them getting together and discussing the mission over dinner one night. Like thousands of interactions these characters would have had between episodes the audience was just never shown that moment. Maybe something like that happened, maybe it didn't. The point is we were never told they didn't meet before; unlike Garibaldi and Sheridan whom obviously did not know each other early in Season Two. I can't think of any time where the three of them having met before is a problem. In fact it actually helps with some of the logic of the show when you find out they had met before. I'm thinking of a little scene where Franklin is convinced fairly easily to accept Sheridan's help in saving Garibaldi with the alien life force device. At the time he wrote the scene JMS might not have known that he was eventually going to make it so Sheridan and Franklin had met prior to B5, but it still fits in well with that scene.

Quote:

Originally Posted by b5historyman (Post 459857)
It's Ganya Ivanov. And does every officer aboard a ship know the names of all the crew? How do you know that Ivanova and Sheridan didn't talk about Ganya while they were posted to Io.

Yeah I agree and I also agree with what others say. Just because we didn't see it on screen doesn't mean Sheridan and Ivanova have never discussed her brother before. For all we know they have discussed him many times. We were just never shown it on screen. There is nothing in the show that says Sheridan didn't know her brother. If anything it establishes a logic to why the two of them are so close. Ivanova had worked under Sheridan before and if they had the common bond of knowing her brother then it makes their closeness all the more believable. What I mean by that is they worked together, which doesn't always mean they are friends. Having a common denominator might have sparked their personal relationship. Just because it was never shown to the audience doesn't mean it didn't happen - and according to all whom have chimed in here there doesn't seem to be anything from JMS that says Sheridan didn't know Ganya.

Quote:

Originally Posted by b5historyman (Post 459857)
Londo as far as I recall is not directly responsible for ordering the strike, he was certainly responsible for providing faulty intelligence.

Completely agree.

Quote:

Originally Posted by b5historyman (Post 459857)
Grasping at straws aren't we, here's Londo just gone through 20 years of crap and only an hour or so away from his death, why shouldn't he have reconsidered his feelings?

I agree with that and I will add that he definitely mentions being married four times in the show and he is the Emperor talking to children. He could be reconsidering feelings or he could just talking to children and their governess so he says he loved all of his wives. SIDE NOTE: We know his first wife was a scandal. Is it possible that she is a secret and Londo married a publically known fourth wife after becoming Emperor? Just a curious thought I had and decided to share. I assume he was referring to the four wives we know he had, but then I had another thought that popped in my head about his years as Emperor. :lol:

b5historyman December 4th 17 08:30

Re: Theory on "In the Beginning"
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Looney (Post 459867)
Quote:

Originally Posted by b5historyman (Post 459857)
Coplann and Hedronn are one and the same. Coplann used an alias while parading as a functionary from the Minbari Ministry of Culture while investigating Delenn's status for the Council.

THANK YOU! I was reading through this thread again trying to remember what was going on with this specific point and you just cleared it up. He was Satai traveling incognito. I knew there was something as I was reading through the thread. My guess is that Delenn didn't use an alias because if the truth ever came out it would look VERY bad; where as Coplann is exactly as you stated and not permanently assigned to B5. Thank you so much for bring that up because I could not remember what was going on there, but I knew I knew the correct answer and you provided it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by b5historyman (Post 459857)
How do you know? It was a classified mission and as pointed out you never get to see G'Kar and Sheridan's first meeting.

I agree and I don't even think it requires mentioning that it was a classified mission. I can't think of one moment in the show where it seems awkward. I think it fit brilliantly. They never specifically mention meeting each other before, but we also don't see every interaction these characters have and they never specifically mention that they've never met before. If I read between the lines I can imagine the three of them getting together and discussing the mission over dinner one night. Like thousands of interactions these characters would have had between episodes the audience was just never shown that moment. Maybe something like that happened, maybe it didn't. The point is we were never told they didn't meet before; unlike Garibaldi and Sheridan whom obviously did not know each other early in Season Two. I can't think of any time where the three of them having met before is a problem. In fact it actually helps with some of the logic of the show when you find out they had met before. I'm thinking of a little scene where Franklin is convinced fairly easily to accept Sheridan's help in saving Garibaldi with the alien life force device. At the time he wrote the scene JMS might not have known that he was eventually going to make it so Sheridan and Franklin had met prior to B5, but it still fits in well with that scene.



Yeah I agree and I also agree with what others say. Just because we didn't see it on screen doesn't mean Sheridan and Ivanova have never discussed her brother before. For all we know they have discussed him many times. We were just never shown it on screen. There is nothing in the show that says Sheridan didn't know her brother. If anything it establishes a logic to why the two of them are so close. Ivanova had worked under Sheridan before and if they had the common bond of knowing her brother then it makes their closeness all the more believable. What I mean by that is they worked together, which doesn't always mean they are friends. Having a common denominator might have sparked their personal relationship. Just because it was never shown to the audience doesn't mean it didn't happen - and according to all whom have chimed in here there doesn't seem to be anything from JMS that says Sheridan didn't know Ganya.

Quote:

Originally Posted by b5historyman (Post 459857)
Londo as far as I recall is not directly responsible for ordering the strike, he was certainly responsible for providing faulty intelligence.

Completely agree.

Quote:

Originally Posted by b5historyman (Post 459857)
Grasping at straws aren't we, here's Londo just gone through 20 years of crap and only an hour or so away from his death, why shouldn't he have reconsidered his feelings?

I agree with that and I will add that he definitely mentions being married four times in the show and he is the Emperor talking to children. He could be reconsidering feelings or he could just talking to children and their governess so he says he loved all of his wives. SIDE NOTE: We know his first wife was a scandal. Is it possible that she is a secret and Londo married a publically known fourth wife after becoming Emperor? Just a curious thought I had and decided to share. I assume he was referring to the four wives we know he had, but then I had another thought that popped in my head about his years as Emperor. :lol:

No just the four. While it wasn't specifically spoken about it certainly didn't seem to be a secret.


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