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-   -   EpDis: In The Beginning (http://www.b5tv.com/showthread.php?t=9823)

Jade Jaguar February 24th 08 01:15

Re: EpDis: In The Beginning
 
Well, yes, it had been going on before him, but it was still on-going when he was alive. So, although they had antagonized his race in the "distant past," they had also done it until recently. The memories were fresh enough to G'Kar.

Elipsis February 25th 08 04:54

Re: EpDis: In The Beginning
 
It went on for 100 years, didn't it?

GKarsEye May 12th 09 14:49

Re: EpDis: In The Beginning
 
Re-watched this last night. Something bothered me: Delenn regrets the war with humans shortly after it starts and wants to stop it but can't because the Grey Council wouldn't agree. At the same time they don't act against the Shadows because they don't know that the Vorlons initiated contact with any Minbari.

Why didn't Delenn just show the Grey Council that Vorlons were there? Yeah, the Vorlons move secretly and slowly, I get it, but if the Vorlons and Delenn and the Rangers, or at least their leader, new the humans were necessary to fight the Shadows, that wasn't important enough to show the Council that Vorlons were there?

Sure it would have looked odd to stop the war suddenly, but that's what happened anyway at the line.

Jan May 12th 09 16:33

Re: EpDis: In The Beginning
 
As we learned though, the Rangers at that time weren't powerful and were underfunded, barely being maintained at all out of respect for their history. We don't know why the Vorlons wouldn't allow Dukhat or Delenn to reveal their presence but Delenn, as the junior member and Lenonn of the unpopular Anla-Shok were definitely not powerful enough to sway the Grey Council.

Jan

fisheggs May 12th 09 16:39

Re: EpDis: In The Beginning
 
The Vorlons also "knew" that B4 and Valen were integral to stopping the earlier Shadow war.

GKarsEye May 12th 09 17:01

Re: EpDis: In The Beginning
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jan (Post 342681)
As we learned though, the Rangers at that time weren't powerful and were underfunded, barely being maintained at all out of respect for their history. We don't know why the Vorlons wouldn't allow Dukhat or Delenn to reveal their presence but Delenn, as the junior member and Lenonn of the unpopular Anla-Shok were definitely not powerful enough to sway the Grey Council.

Jan

Right but the reputation of Lenonn and/or the Rangers or any of that stuff wouldn't matter if the Council just saw the Vorlons. One of them pretty much said that exact thing when Lenonn tried to convince them to prepare for the Shadows: show us a Vorlon and we'll believe you. Of course the whole time Dukhat was actually dealing w/ Vorlons.

Eh... I guess Valen must've told the Vorlons to do exactly what they did, let the Earth-Minbari war proceed and the Battle of the Line happen, etc. He probably told them the war would happen so the Vorlons were totally comfortably with the near extinction of the key race needed to defeat the Shadows.

Sindatur May 12th 09 17:22

Re: EpDis: In The Beginning
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by GKarsEye (Post 342688)
Right but the reputation of Lenonn and/or the Rangers or any of that stuff wouldn't matter if the Council just saw the Vorlons. One of them pretty much said that exact thing when Lenonn tried to convince them to prepare for the Shadows: show us a Vorlon and we'll believe you. Of course the whole time Dukhat was actually dealing w/ Vorlons.

Eh... I guess Valen must've told the Vorlons to do exactly what they did, let the Earth-Minbari war proceed and the Battle of the Line happen, etc. He probably told them the war would happen so the Vorlons were totally comfortably with the near extinction of the key race needed to defeat the Shadows.

I think that's exactly it, the war needed to happen, in order for Delenn to become the person she became, and the war needed to happen in order to put Sinclair in the position to be a Minbari (mentally) and to ultimately become Valen.

A_M_Swallow May 12th 09 20:31

Re: EpDis: In The Beginning
 
Without the Earth-Minbari War the Babylon stations would not have been built.

Galahad May 12th 09 22:22

Re: EpDis: In The Beginning
 
I don't disagree but it's interesting to not the conflict in Sinclair/Valen on this issue.

He knows it is necessary yet still takes action to divert it on at least one occasion... (in a sequence in the comic "In Valen's Name", Valen tries to pass on a written message for Delenn in the future that will prevent the war... and is silently scolded by one of the vorlons).

I kind of wonder who played the stronger role there... Valen or the vorlons?

Kosh had touched Sinclair's mind and probably knew his memories. If the vorlons shared information telepathically, it may have been they who insisted on sticking to history.

Heck it slides nicely in with the whole "order above all" agenda.

Perhaps the vorlons don't subscribe to branch theory... or perhaps they "fear" it because it leads to an unpredictable more chaotic future (by which i mean thgat events cannot be predicted or controlled).

GKarsEye May 13th 09 02:09

Re: EpDis: In The Beginning
 
I suppose it would be the case that, unlike Sheridan and eventually Delenn, Sinclair never came to the conclusion that the Vorlons could be as much of a problem as the Shadows and never lost the conviction that they must be obeyed.

KoshFan May 13th 09 05:14

Re: EpDis: In The Beginning
 
In "To Dream in the City of Sorrows," Sinclair is quite suspicious of Ulkesh, and as we see him drafting his famous message to Garibaldi, he carefully phrases his "Stay close to the Vorlon" line on the principles of "Keep your friends close and your enemies closer."

Did Sinclair know Kosh was dead? There were broad hints they were close, in Sinclair's role as Valen, and he may have trusted Kosh a great deal; if he didn't know Kosh was dead (and the Army of Light was playing it very close to the chest) then he might have realized that the Vorlons would run wild without Kosh's moderating influence, but felt Kosh would keep them in line and thus gave no warnings.

Galahad May 13th 09 07:55

Re: EpDis: In The Beginning
 
I think he did know Kosh was dead. I think that is how Kosh knew beyond a shadow of a doubt (pardon the pun) that his number was up... From finding out through his link to Valen 1000 years earlier.

GKarsEye May 13th 09 14:46

Re: EpDis: In The Beginning
 
If Valen wouldn't let future Minbari know about the war with humans in order to preserve history as he knew it, then it stands to reason he also wouldn't let Kosh know about his death.

Crusader May 18th 09 15:53

Re: EpDis: In The Beginning
 
Im just now rewatching all of B5. And wacthing this again certain things jump out at me. I kind understand, wanting to do a feature on the Earth-Minbari war but i think they may have missed the mark on this one. There was no real emphasis on SInclair's role, though i understand Michael O'Hare wasn't available for filming, which may explain that. But other things don't sit right, like Sheridan and Franklin going on that mission for peace. Especially as early on in season 2 there is no recognition between the characters, i believe frnaklin even said at one point "I havent seen much of him, but what i have seen i like". It just seems to me this one is trying to hard, leading to a few continuity errors.

And the bit at the end of the film linking this to the War Without End episode, why and how had Sheridan and Delenn been captured by the Centauri?

Jan May 18th 09 16:40

Re: EpDis: In The Beginning
 
The bit at the end shows when Sheridan 'time flashed' into his older self and he and Delenn were captured on Centauri Prime while trying to rescue their son, David. The time that he flashed into was when David was sixteen years old and under control of the 'keeper' that Londo had left for him in the urn. This is covered in more detail in the Centauri trilogy of books.

Jan

KoshFan May 18th 09 16:40

Re: EpDis: In The Beginning
 
To the first point, we don't actually see Franklin and Sheridan meet in Season 2... and they wouldn't be apt to talk about a secret mission. But Franklin would, of course, like a peace mission -- so when he says that he's liked what he's seen of Sheridan, that actually computes. Yeah, it's mostly a retcon, but whaddya gonna do?

Delenn and Sheridan being captured is covered in the Centauri Prime trilogy of books. That's actually not a retcon, since JMS knew how it was going to play out, wrote it into both War Without End and In the Beginning, and finally handed the story off to the books' author to finally set down on paper.

EDIT: I'd have to get up real early in the morning to beat Jan to an explanation...

Jan May 18th 09 21:46

Re: EpDis: In The Beginning
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by KoshFan (Post 343170)
EDIT: I'd have to get up real early in the morning to beat Jan to an explanation...

Looks like it was just a matter of seconds, though! Anyway, I didn't deal with the Franklin issue and you did so yours was more complete. :)

Jan

Crusader May 18th 09 22:05

Re: EpDis: In The Beginning
 
well thank you both for your replies. :)

vacantlook May 18th 09 23:08

Re: EpDis: In The Beginning
 
Despite the short specific moments of the events we see in "War Without End" and "In The Beginning", I'd really like to see the entire of the story of what happens on Centauri Prime in the Centauri novel trilogy. I've read them, and liked them (way more than I did the techno-mage trilogy), but I'd still love to see them fully visually depicted.

butlerd November 29th 09 02:35

Re: EpDis: In The Beginning
 
It was really quite a good movie and definitely the best out of all of them- though I liked "Call To Arms" a lot too. The only major problem that I had with it- and this goes for the Star Wars prequels as well- is that it put some of the major characters together in a contrived manner that defied plausibility when the series hadn't established the background for their prior interaction. If Sheridan, Franklin, and G'Kar had exhibited some previous familiarity with each other when Sheridan came aboard B5 in S2, their interaction with each other during the E-M war wouldn't have seemed so contrived. Also, I thought it was wierd that the Soul Hunter scene from S4's flashback was axed out the scene with Dukhat right before his death. That being said, it was still an interesting chronicle of the E-M war that does a good job tying together the major characters' back stories as referenced in the series. I also really liked how Londo narrated the story and the end when we find out when Londo is telling the story- namely right before his *meeting* with Sheridan and Delenn- previously seen in "War Without End" and before his and G'Kar's death.

Estelyn February 13th 11 21:19

Re: EpDis: In The Beginning
 
I enjoyed seeing this prequel to the series, though I do have several reservations. I definitely would not use it to introduce someone new to B5; not only are there spoilers, but also a bewildering number of characters showing up, some only very briefly. I can imagine someone wondering why that young girl appears, not realizing that Ivanova will play an important role on the station.

I do like the framework of aged Londo telling the story to children. Having him ask that crucial question, "What do you want?" brings back memories of his own decisions.

Why did Robin Atkin Downes have to play a Minbari?! I kept seeing Byron in him and wondering why he had to send for a telepath...

Interesting to know that Londo actually gave some good advice to the Earth Alliance on approaching the Minbari. However, he made up for that by spoiling the chance for peace later on.

What's fun to see is the younger version of each character! Londo with more and darker hair, Sheridan with a crew cut, Ivanova with short hair.

I do like seeing Dukhat again - a great character! Tragic that his death is the trigger for Minbari wrath and revenge. His statement about looking into the face of a Vorlon, upon which all doubt is gone, makes clear why Delenn later wanted to see Kosh to be sure of her path.

Interesting that Sheridan describes himself as chosen for the mission because he's expendable. He's not, of course.

The President's speech was very moving. Her appeal to "hold the line" makes clear why the battle was named so. I did notice one phrase she used, though - "Eve of Destruction" is a 60s protest song - intentional or chance?

Having G'Kar as a translator is risky, isn't it?! A warrior would not seem to be the best aid to achieving peace.

Once again Delenn blows a candle out, symbolically for the lives lost.

Sinclair is bound in that Christ-like position we've seen several times in the series.

The closing is very interesting - immediately preceding the end of Londo's life, after his last encounter with Sheridan and Delenn. Great camera move - leaving through the one open window.

I have read the first two of the Centauri book trilogy; alas, the third is so expensive that I haven't bought it. Wish it were available at a reasonable price - I'd like to read the conclusion.

Jan February 13th 11 23:39

Re: EpDis: In The Beginning
 
Actually, Robin Atkin Downes played the Minbari *before* he played Byron. ItB was shown as a lead-up to Season Five on TNT.

Jan

Estelyn February 14th 11 09:07

Re: EpDis: In The Beginning
 
Ah, good point, Jan! Then I wonder if his performance in ItB got him a role in Season 5.

vacantlook February 14th 11 15:07

Re: EpDis: In The Beginning
 
Quote:

I do like the framework of aged Londo telling the story to children. Having him ask that crucial question, "What do you want?" brings back memories of his own decisions.
If you remember back to "The Gathering", Londo began that with a bit of narration too. It kind of establishing the whole show as being him telling the story to someone. "In The Beginning" now seems to be showing us to whom he was telling it.

123123 March 13th 11 21:39

Re: EpDis: In The Beginning
 
establishing*

Jade Jaguar March 16th 11 03:34

Re: EpDis: In The Beginning
 
Vacantlook, have you cloned yourself? There seem to be two... :wtf:

teacake March 16th 11 09:07

Re: EpDis: In The Beginning
 
I just watched this the other night for the first time and I loved it. I was moved to tears over the defense of earth. It was also great to see so many epic moments that had been slowly revealed in the series but not shown. It was great to see Sinclair again too.

vacantlook March 16th 11 16:15

Re: EpDis: In The Beginning
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jade Jaguar (Post 368468)
Vacantlook, have you cloned yourself? There seem to be two... :wtf:

Yeah, not quite sure what's going on with that. That second post is not mine.

Demonn March 16th 11 18:38

Re: EpDis: In The Beginning
 
Must be a glitch in the Matrix. ;)

I know... not helping. :p

fisheggs March 17th 11 03:00

Re: EpDis: In The Beginning
 
Looks a a spambot in the making. Does the system allow duplicate member names?

vacantlook March 17th 11 05:36

Re: EpDis: In The Beginning
 
I didn't think the system allowed it, but it looks like it happened. Or at least something happened.

On topic, teacake: I too find the defense of Earth in In The Beginning to be a particularly moving moment in Babylon 5. The President's speech, the music, Londo's narration, they're all excellent.

RW7427 March 22nd 11 01:26

Re: EpDis: In The Beginning
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by vacantlook (Post 368502)
I didn't think the system allowed it, but it looks like it happened. Or at least something happened.

On topic, teacake: I too find the defense of Earth in In The Beginning to be a particularly moving moment in Babylon 5. The President's speech, the music, Londo's narration, they're all excellent.

Me three! :lol:

GKarsEye March 22nd 11 14:58

Re: EpDis: In The Beginning
 
Started another re-watch of the series (this time via Netflix Instant).
Decided to do it chronologically within the story, so started with In the Beginning. Just that whole beginning dialogue with Londo and the kids, like "are you the emperor" "sometimes I ask myself the same question" and "what do you want?... he did better with that question than I did."

He talks about stuff that happened! I love that crap.

Last night I watched Parliament of Dreams, and that ridiculous writerly dialogue between Sakai and Sinclair still makes me laugh. Good times.

Lennier's Tears March 3rd 15 04:59

Re: EpDis: In The Beginning
 
I just watched this one, before starting on Season 5. I just read through the 8 pages of discussion here, and I fear I have nothing to add. A whole bunch of people have already said all the stuff I was thinking: 1. This is my favorite of all the b5 movies. I love seeing the backstory come to life like this, and everything looks really nice. 2. It's great to see what everyone we know from the series was doing during the war, but the bits that put them all together are indeed a bit contrived. 3. The Londo bits are great, as always. 4. The Presiden't speech and everything to do with the Battle of the Line is very moving.

One thing I didn't yet see mentioned in response to Estelyn's post: Robin Atkin Downes didn't come out of nowhere for this movie, he already played that same part in the flashback scenes in Atonement.

Oh, and as for when I watch it, usually right about at this point, after season 4, before season 5.

RW7427 March 15th 15 03:20

Re: EpDis: In The Beginning
 
I love this movie! My favorite by far of all the B5 movies!


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