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vacantlook February 27th 07 01:45

EpDis: Objects At Rest
 
Refresher Links:
Lurker's Guide Main Page for Objects At Rest
Lurker's Guide Extended Synopsis for Objects At Rest

As we approach the end of Babylon 5 in our EpDis series of threads, I thought I'd just go ahead and say that we won't end here. I intend to continue on and do a thread for each of the telemovies as well as for the Crusade episodes.

KoshN February 27th 07 21:13

Re: EpDis: Objects At Rest
 
If only they would have had alcohol on Minbar, for visiting dignitaries, ...special occasions like Londo's visit. ;)

Jade Jaguar February 27th 07 21:55

Re: EpDis: Objects At Rest
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by KoshN (Post 289939)
If only they would have had alcohol on Minbar, for visiting dignitaries, ...special occasions like Londo's visit. ;)

I've always thought the "no alcohol" thing was a little phoney. So, they don't have a bottle of Jim Beam in the back room, but certainly they would have near-100% ethyl alcohol, for use for any number of things, and without de-naturants such as we use. They could have put that in some fruit juice, or something, and easily given Londo a drink.

I'd say that prudishness was a more likely real reason for not giving him a drink. If only they had known why he needed it! He should have known to bring his own bottle(s). Any ordinary alkie would have.

KoshFan February 27th 07 22:17

Re: EpDis: Objects At Rest
 
I'm not sure the Keeper would have allowed it into the luggage.

KoshN February 27th 07 22:21

Re: EpDis: Objects At Rest
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jade Jaguar (Post 289940)
If only they had known why he needed it!

TRUE!!!



Quote:

Originally Posted by Jade Jaguar (Post 289940)
He should have known to bring his own bottle(s). Any ordinary alkie would have.

The Drakh, Shiv'kala, was watching him. Remember the conversation back on his ship as it was leaving? Any alcohol Londo would have been able to drink, would have to have been supplied outside of the Drakh's control, on Minbar.

Jade Jaguar February 27th 07 22:29

Re: EpDis: Objects At Rest
 
KoshF and KoshN, why would they let him have it on Centauri Prime, but not let him take it with him? Wouldn't they have eliminated it there, or at least kept him away from it, on CP as well, if they had fully realized the danger?

KoshN February 27th 07 22:42

Re: EpDis: Objects At Rest
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jade Jaguar (Post 289946)
KoshF and KoshN, why would they let him have it on Centauri Prime, but not let him take it with him? Wouldn't they have eliminated it there, or at least kept him away from it, on CP as well, if they had fully realized the danger?

They have less control over Londo on Minbar than they do in their immediate presence on Londo's ship. A drink with dinner would be part of perfectly acceptable behavior for Londo. In fact, Londo not having a drink with dinner would look positively strange for all those who know him, and John and Delenn KNOW Londo. The Drakh probably figured that there would be no alcohol available to Londo on Minbar because of the Minbari reaction to alcohol, and hence it was relatively safe to let him go there.

Remember, they want him to deliver the Keeper, but don't want to raise suspicions by having Londo not acting like Londo, and we all know that Londo drinks.

Jade Jaguar February 27th 07 22:51

Re: EpDis: Objects At Rest
 
That still doesn't explain why they let him have alcohol on Centauri Prime, if they realized the danger. Also, he could have gotten drunk, and hidden a bottle in his luggage, before leaving. I'm sure he is clever enough to do that, if only for a contingency plan.

KoshFan February 27th 07 23:12

Re: EpDis: Objects At Rest
 
Perhaps he did, but didn't realize that the Keeper would know what he had done once he sobered up. In that case the Keeper would have alerted the Drakh, who would have quickly and efficiently removed the alcohol.

SPOILERS FOR CENTAURI PRIME TRILOGY:

On Centauri Prime the desire to have Londo act normal would have been almost stronger, as there were those who knew him there. In the books and short stories the Drakh are truly paranoid about keeping their secret.

Moreover, they've got those implaced nukes all over the place, and were within range to trigger them if necessary. On Minbar they had to be more careful, being too far from CP to trigger the explosives right away. (And they were nearly done in by Delenn's vision/latent telepathy/whatever, anyway. If only she'd gotten more information...)

Galahad February 28th 07 09:43

Re: EpDis: Objects At Rest
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jade Jaguar (Post 289949)
That still doesn't explain why they let him have alcohol on Centauri Prime, if they realized the danger. Also, he could have gotten drunk, and hidden a bottle in his luggage, before leaving. I'm sure he is clever enough to do that, if only for a contingency plan.

I always suspected that perhaps he had attempted to get inebriated prior to arriving on Minbar, but had not consumed enough alcohol to put the keeper under (on Centauri Prime, Londo has access to plenty of alcohol, on a ship he has a more limited supply). I thought that is why Delenn semi saw the Keeper... because it was only just tipsy enough to be starting to lose it's ability to remain cloaked...

raw_bean February 28th 07 10:21

Re: EpDis: Objects At Rest
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jade Jaguar (Post 289946)
KoshF and KoshN, why would they let him have it on Centauri Prime, but not let him take it with him? Wouldn't they have eliminated it there, or at least kept him away from it, on CP as well, if they had fully realized the danger?

Why would they bother? On CP, they have the place wired with nukes. He can get as drunk as he wants, he still can't do anything there while they have that hanging over him. The dinner on Minbar was probably going to be his best (if not only) ever chance to do something outside the control of the Drakh.

RW7427 February 28th 07 14:44

Re: EpDis: Objects At Rest
 
Good stuff! Gets a B from me. :D

Boxie February 28th 07 21:13

Re: EpDis: Objects At Rest
 
I liked this episode! It's the scene between Lennier and Sheridan that makes it for me. I remember the first time I saw it. I was so shocked to see Lennier just standing there, looking around...struggling with the decision of whether or not to help him, and was :( speechless as I watched him leave. I know he went back but I just could not believe it.

KoshN February 28th 07 21:23

Re: EpDis: Objects At Rest
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Boxie (Post 290077)
I liked this episode! It's the scene between Lennier and Sheridan that makes it for me. I remember the first time I saw it. I was so shocked to see Lennier just standing there, looking around...struggling with the decision of whether or not to help him, and was :( speechless as I watched him leave. I know he went back but I just could not believe it.

IIRC, neither could Bill Mumy, believe it, that is.

Lousy_Dodgers March 27th 07 02:12

Re: EpDis: Objects At Rest
 
I do not recall it from the Centauri Prime Trilogy but I just wonder when Sheridan ever got around to remembering that he saw Londo's keeper in WWE. Granted, Sheridan thought he was avoiding that particular future by going against Dellen's advice, but once he learned about his 20 years to live, the wheels should have started turning in his head.

Estelyn February 8th 11 21:16

Re: EpDis: Objects At Rest
 
More closure in this episode - we find out for whom G'Kar left that recorded message. Ta'Lon is a great choice as his replacement! Then comes the next replacement - Dr. Hobbes. Interesting choice, as the one with whom Franklin probably had the most disagreements. Nice when someone can see farther than that to recognize the true worth of a person.

Garibaldi also chooses replacements - not for himself, but for the fired board members. He too wants those who will stand up, against him if necessary. Good for him!

Sheridan is saying his farewells too. I got a kick out of the X-Files reference, whether intentional or not - "What's out there? The truth." And Lochley speaks for us all when she says, "This place grows on you." Delenn's words upon leaving, "Our souls are part of this place."

Zack says he'll be there when they turn the lights off - prophetic, iirc, isn't it?

I love that look into C&C from the White Star, with everyone lined up. It's touching when Lochley and Sheridan exchange salutes.

Then comes the chance event that brings on Lennier's betrayal. He doesn't get the opportunity to rectify his mistake, as Sheridan rescues himself. We see him change his mind and know that he came back out of a good motive, but Sheridan has his justified doubts. "There has to be a price." Lennier did step over the line. However, I have the greatest admiration for Sheridan, who keeps the secret and saves face - not only Lennier's but also his and Delenn's. It would have been a very inauspicious start to have that become known.

Ah, Londo - Emperor Mollari, that is. He comes because he is sent, with evil intentions on the part of the Drakh. But he genuinely enjoys seeing his friends again. Apparently the Drakh realize that alcohol is disadvantageous for the Keeper, since they rarely allow it to him.

Sheridan's recorded message for his child is a very poignant way to end the episode, especially since the visuals show the others. It's hard for me, the viewer, to let go of B5 and the characters I've come to love, echoing their own reluctance.

Jade Jaguar February 9th 11 02:40

Re: EpDis: Objects At Rest
 
I so much expected to see that new lineup on C&C on Crusade, and was so disappointed when I didn't. You might guess that, from my avatar...

Alioth September 11th 11 12:20

Re: EpDis: Objects At Rest
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jade Jaguar (Post 289949)
That still doesn't explain why they let him have alcohol on Centauri Prime, if they realized the danger. Also, he could have gotten drunk, and hidden a bottle in his luggage, before leaving. I'm sure he is clever enough to do that, if only for a contingency plan.

Remember though that sobriety is actually considered a "vice" among Centauri (the Regent's "only vice" as Londo had put it). Their spiritual beliefs are bacchinalian in nature. So not only would Londo arouse some curiosity among his acquaintances on Centauri Prime, but quitting drink would actually be a little scandalous, and everyone would be looking at him more closely. And as KoshFan said, the Drakh were very paranoid about anything looking out of place and arousing curiosity that could go places they didn't want it to.

In the Centauri Trilogy, the Drakh didn't need the Keeper awake and monitoring constantly to ensure their general will (and occasional specific instructions) was kept. The threat of them finding out what he'd done after the fact was enough.
Spoiler for Centauri Trilogy:
Like when Shiv'kala had actually laid out a plot with him to assassinate Sheridan (before the events of "Objects at Rest"), as a test, to see if he'd try to betray that plot. He did by dropping hints to Vir while inebriated, the plot was thwarted, and Shiv'kala knew he had a hand in that because of details of the plot he revealed only to Londo. And he then used the Keeper to punish him severely (and made him do "penance" by delivering the Keeper to Sheridan's future son as we saw in "Objects at Rest").
He was also effectively kept out of the loop on a lot of things, so there weren't too many beans he could spill anyway.

If you haven't read the trilogy, read it if you can find the books. I'll just say that the way the Drakh orchestrated events and actions on Centauri Prime was tragically fascinating--subtle yet thorough, and for the most part didn't even require Keepers on the various players, or even direct communications from the Drakh to them (most of them never knew they were there).

Alioth September 11th 11 12:42

Re: EpDis: Objects At Rest
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Lousy_Dodgers (Post 292930)
I do not recall it from the Centauri Prime Trilogy but I just wonder when Sheridan ever got around to remembering that he saw Londo's keeper in WWE. Granted, Sheridan thought he was avoiding that particular future by going against Dellen's advice, but once he learned about his 20 years to live, the wheels should have started turning in his head.

If he ever did put two and two together, it never says.

Which is something I've wondered about too. The Rangers seemed to know about keepers, as Marcus spotted the one on Captain Jack (not sure if he knew its nature though, but its nature was revealed by Franklin's examination of it, and Captain Jack telling them what he knew about it). You'd think that Sheridan, curious "collector of secrets" that he is, would have done some digging to find out what it was he'd seen in his "time jump" experience, maybe found out what intelligence the Rangers had on these (and we know from the CT that the Technomages, or at least Galen, knew what they were too), and begun wondering if Londo had already had this "Keeper" on him from the out-of-character things he was doing (or that were being done in his name). Maybe not investigating all this before "Objects at Rest", but some time in the next several years. Maybe even figuring out that the Drakh (who 5 years later would attack Earth) were hiding out on Centauri Prime. But none of that seemed to happen from anything I saw or read.

Lennier's Tears May 10th 15 23:45

Re: EpDis: Objects At Rest
 
I'm sort of surprised to see Boxie upthread say that the Sheridan/Lennier scene is what made the episode for them. I like to pretend it never happened :p We've been discussing it so much in the other threads, I have very little left to say about it, other than once again: It doesn't fit with the character. Not even if you consider Delenn's "explanation" about how there are moments when we are not ourselves. Another interesting thing we haven't yet discussed is how Delenn mentions that in Lennier's diary, he talked about how he think that Delenn's relationship with Sheridan is a mistake. This is .. odd. I get that he is jealous, but surely he can see that they are well suited to one another?

That bit sort of overshadows the whole episode for me, although it is really quite nice, otherwise.... More endings.... And some scary Keeper foreshadowing. It's good stuff.

I love that Ta'Lon is the new Narn ambassador, and Dr. Hobbes the new Chief of Staff of medlab. They are both characters I really like. However, what is the deal on this show with people picking their own replacements? I commented on this when Dr. Franklin was offered Dr. Kyle's old job at Earth Dome in "The Ragged Edge". Here we see Dr. Franklin not only picking his own replacement, but offering her the job on the day he is leaving. It's more than a little bit weird.

I love all the goodbyes. It's all very sad.

Jan May 11th 15 11:38

Re: EpDis: Objects At Rest
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Lennier's Tears (Post 451561)
I'm sort of surprised to see Boxie upthread say that the Sheridan/Lennier scene is what made the episode for them. I like to pretend it never happened :p We've been discussing it so much in the other threads, I have very little left to say about it, other than once again: It doesn't fit with the character. Not even if you consider Delenn's "explanation" about how there are moments when we are not ourselves. Another interesting thing we haven't yet discussed is how Delenn mentions that in Lennier's diary, he talked about how he think that Delenn's relationship with Sheridan is a mistake. This is .. odd. I get that he is jealous, but surely he can see that they are well suited to one another?

I think jealous isn't the word at this point. Obsessive would better describe it. Delusional is another good word. He tried to convince Marcus that his love was "higher, nobler" which was pure self-delusion. Then he joined the Rangers in order to be worthy of her and trained too hard. Look back at the script from 'The Very Long Night of Londo Mollari' when they discuss his leaving for the Rangers.

Quote:

I only wish to
add a few more. To become more of
what you might want me to be. More
of what you might find --
(attractive)
He feels their relationship is a mistake because he feels that he's the best one for her.

Jan

Mororless May 11th 15 17:56

Re: EpDis: Objects At Rest
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Lennier's Tears (Post 451561)
I'm sort of surprised to see Boxie upthread say that the Sheridan/Lennier scene is what made the episode for them. I like to pretend it never happened :p We've been discussing it so much in the other threads, I have very little left to say about it, other than once again: It doesn't fit with the character. Not even if you consider Delenn's "explanation" about how there are moments when we are not ourselves. .

As I said in the other thread I think the weakness of this is that it means the whole situation is less of a comment on the character. When the likes of Delenn, Londo, G'Kar, Ivanova, etc suffer some kind of "fall" a lot of the weight comes from the fact that there actions are very much in character.

Lennier's Tears May 11th 15 18:49

Re: EpDis: Objects At Rest
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jan (Post 451563)

I think jealous isn't the word at this point. Obsessive would better describe it. Delusional is another good word. He tried to convince Marcus that his love was "higher, nobler" which was pure self-delusion. Then he joined the Rangers in order to be worthy of her and trained too hard. Look back at the script from 'The Very Long Night of Londo Mollari' when they discuss his leaving for the Rangers.

Quote:

I only wish to
add a few more. To become more of
what you might want me to be. More
of what you might find --
(attractive)
He feels their relationship is a mistake because he feels that he's the best one for her.

Jan

Yes, I think "obsessive" and "delusional" are accurate descriptions. I think there's still a world of difference between "maybe if I do this or this thing she'll like me" (and I thought that conversation was out of character, too. It'd be one thing for him to THINK that, to actually say it to her is another), and "I'm clearly the best possible partner for her". This is humble, self-effacing Lennier we're talking about. He's practically a kid, too. In his more rational moments, he must realize that it'll be several decades before he would have enough life experience to where he could be a kind of equal partner to Delenn. (And conveniently, she's going to be without a husband in a couple decades anyway ... He could have just waited!)

I feel that for him to be THIS out of touch with reality, he must be suffering from some mental illness that apparently no one picked up on. My other explanation, as I've mentioned elsewhere, is that he's going through some type of Minbari puberty that we're just never told about on the show.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mororless (Post 451564)
As I said in the other thread I think the weakness of this is that it means the whole situation is less of a comment on the character. When the likes of Delenn, Londo, G'Kar, Ivanova, etc suffer some kind of "fall" a lot of the weight comes from the fact that there actions are very much in character.

Yes, I liked your comments in the other thread about how his "fall" could have happened more in character. I guess the problem is that with a character like his, it's hard to have any kind of fall. His only possible fault is that he might be TOO loyal, if there is such a thing. If he had gone against the Rangers to save Delenn , perhaps none of us would have considered that a failing at all ... Depending on circumstances, I guess.

I guess it was simply considered too boring to have a character who is nothing but humble and loyal to the end, and perhaps that is true, although it's not like there's an overabundance of them in the B5 universe. I might be retconning things in my memory because it's been almost 20 years but I think I always felt like something horrible was going to happen to Lennier. I definitely remember expecting that character to be killed off before the end, even before Morden's prophecy in Day of the Dead. You can't have a character like that without something horrible happening to them ... Turns it out it was something way worse than death. I suppose I can see why he'd be written that way, but I don't have to like it :p

Mororless May 14th 15 14:13

Re: EpDis: Objects At Rest
 
You look elsewhere though and B5 does have situations in which characters who by general standards appear very moral still have in character falls. The key I would say is that there fall tends to be one of self judgement which at the simplest level is what I would have changed with Lennier. Still wouldn't have been ideal but having him fail to rescue Sheridan but nobody else be aware of it and then leaving with a confession to Delenn would at least have had some of that aspect to it.

Foxchild May 14th 15 19:18

Re: EpDis: Objects At Rest
 
Well, might as well jump on the "how Lennier's betrayal should have happened" train, too. I agree he should have been the only character aware of the betrayal. Maybe he should have had to run to an out-of-sight console to open the door, but instead just watches Sheridan on the monitor until someone else saves him or at least runs in forcing Lennier to press the button quickly as though he just brought up the correct screen. What if he then ends up lying to Delenn about what happened - how devastating would that be for a pious Minbari! So he leaves without telling anyone, with just a message to Delenn. No confession, other than telling her he now realizes he cares about her too much. He could admit he can no longer look up at her, bringing the "forever running into things" quote nicely full circle.

Lennier's Tears May 14th 15 20:36

Re: EpDis: Objects At Rest
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mororless (Post 451571)
You look elsewhere though and B5 does have situations in which characters who by general standards appear very moral still have in character falls.

I'm kind of curious to see which ones you're thinking of, specifically. Regardless, I think I would agree.

All the major characters are good people with some flaws (Ok, some of them take a while to get around to being essentially good people). I felt that most of their flaws were sort of predictable. I don't mean that in a "bad writing" way, rather the opposite. The flaws fit the characters.

For example, it makes perfect sense for Sheridan to illegally keep Morden in custody. We can all see how Garibaldi starts drinking again. But for Lennier to suddenly do a selfish thing (and one that would have backfired anyway, as he must have known), it's way more shocking. I just can not fit that into my concept of "Lennier" at all.

The character with the most comparable personality would probably be Delenn, although it's hard to say because they're the only major Minbari characters on the show, and the only major Religious Caste characters. Their lives are all about service. Finding Delenn's flaws is actually not that easy, either. Most of the Minbari would probably consider her going against tradition a major flaw, but to our late 20th and early 21st century human eyes, that doesn't look like much of a flaw. She MIGHT, in a moment of weakness, choose love over duty. She never actually does that on the show, but it's sort of hinted at. And that is indeed exactly what we expected Lennier's big "fall" to be about.

Jan May 15th 15 11:58

Re: EpDis: Objects At Rest
 
Delenn's flaw showed up before the show. In a moment of rage she started a genocidal war and then she let herself get swept up in the tide of events. The Delenn we met was learning to force events to her wishes.

Jan

Lennier's Tears May 15th 15 18:18

Re: EpDis: Objects At Rest
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jan (Post 451578)
Delenn's flaw showed up before the show. In a moment of rage she started a genocidal war and then she let herself get swept up in the tide of events. The Delenn we met was learning to force events to her wishes.

Jan

Ah yes, THAT minor detail :p
The "Delenn's was the deciding vote on the war with Earth" reveal is an interesting example in the discussion on Lennier's character. It's a reveal that comes along fairly late in the story and shows a side of Delenn we're not at all familiar with. You'd think that that might seem out of character, but it really doesn't. It's easy to see both how it happened, and how she got from "there" to "here".

At least, that's how I feel about that character.

As for her sort of manipulation of people and events leading up to the Shadow War, she truly believes that she is on the side of Light and that she is employing the best possible strategy to save the universe from total destruction. Of course lots of really terrible people do really terrible things believing they are doing the Right thing, so I don't say that as an excuse for her. I don't claim it's not a fault or a failing, just that it fits with her devotion to her cause. Also I guess I feel her "crimes" are fairly minor in the grand scheme of things. I don't think she can be blamed for what happened to Narn, for example.

RW7427 May 16th 15 18:14

Re: EpDis: Objects At Rest
 
Even "good" people do things that could be considered bad. They do them because they believe they are necessary. Sometimes harm is done, or bad things can happen, but oftentimes that is the risk that these people take in order to achieve what they are trying to do.

Lyta's Shadow August 4th 17 00:07

Re: EpDis: Objects At Rest
 
Considering the lengths the series goes to to wrap up the arcs of all the characters, it seems odd how Lennier's fate is largely left unresolved. He runs away in shame. OK, but I need to know what happens to him next! Where does he go and what does he do there? From memory he doesn't play any significant role in the Del Rey trilogies, I might be right in thinking he isn't featured in them at all. I know JMS has revealed that he dies in the Telepath War but that detail is not revealed or foreshadowed in the series like the fates of many characters. This loose end is somewhat infuriating!

Jan August 4th 17 02:31

Re: EpDis: Objects At Rest
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Lyta's Shadow (Post 459029)
This loose end is somewhat infuriating!

History is seldom neat and tidy and B5 is a slice of history. All we know is that somehow he joined forces with Lyta. Hopefully he felt like he'd earned redemption.

Looney August 6th 17 16:01

Re: EpDis: Objects At Rest
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jan (Post 459030)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Lyta's Shadow (Post 459029)
This loose end is somewhat infuriating!

History is seldom neat and tidy and B5 is a slice of history. All we know is that somehow he joined forces with Lyta. Hopefully he felt like he'd earned redemption.

Yes I imagine his fate might have been this grand heroic effort that no one would ever know about. :(

vacantlook August 7th 17 05:50

Re: EpDis: Objects At Rest
 
Aside from a time or two that Lyta was on the White Star, was there really any instances of Lennier and she interacting? I'm trying to think of literally any moments between the two, and I can't. Makes it seem out of nowhere that he would get involved in this particular conflict. I wonder what JMS had in mind as to how he specifically got into it.

Looney August 7th 17 17:07

Re: EpDis: Objects At Rest
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by vacantlook (Post 459053)
Aside from a time or two that Lyta was on the White Star, was there really any instances of Lennier and she interacting? I'm trying to think of literally any moments between the two, and I can't. Makes it seem out of nowhere that he would get involved in this particular conflict. I wonder what JMS had in mind as to how he specifically got into it.

I can't think of many instances where Lennier and Lyta shared screen time, but you can always assume they might have done things during the days between episodes. There could be a whole other show just based on what happened in those week long spans between episodes. Plus in Lennier's case you have to remember that Garbaldi plays some role with Lyta. Lennier might have turned to Garbaldi after some time had passed - doubtful, but not impossible. ;)


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