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-   -   EpDis: Meditations On The Abyss (http://www.b5tv.com/showthread.php?t=9565)

vacantlook December 30th 06 04:14

EpDis: Meditations On The Abyss
 
Refresher Links:
Lurker's Guide Main Page for Meditations On The Abyss
Lurker's Guide Extended Synopsis for Meditations On The Abyss

KoshN December 30th 06 04:49

Re: EpDis: Meditations On The Abyss
 
B. Couldn't stand Findell. Gah! Made my skin crawl with all that whining. :(

Shaal Mayan December 30th 06 13:17

Re: EpDis: Meditations On The Abyss
 
B good I liked seeing a different kind of minbari one that didn't seem to sure of himself and seeing Lennier again is always grand.

KoshN December 30th 06 14:02

Re: EpDis: Meditations On The Abyss
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Shaal Mayan (Post 281954)
B good I liked seeing a different kind of minbari one that didn't seem to sure of himself and seeing Lennier again is always grand.

We've seen quite a few Minbari that haven't been sure of themselves (Lennier, when he first showed up; the one with Tannier in Learning Curve; the one who tried to frame Sheridan for killing that other Minbari in There All the Honor Lies; quite a few of the religious caste Minbari in Rumors, Bargains and Lies; etc.). This was the first one that whined like a little baby. There were moments that I thought he was going to break down and cry like a three year old. :p

RMcD December 30th 06 17:20

Re: EpDis: Meditations On The Abyss
 
Findell's skullcap doesn't seem to fit properly either, particularly in the close-up scenes in his fighter.. It's a small thing next to his whining, but I find it distracting..

RW7427 December 30th 06 22:43

Re: EpDis: Meditations On The Abyss
 
Good stuff in my book! :)

Elipsis May 6th 08 17:11

Re: EpDis: Meditations On The Abyss
 
C+. The Lennier story was good but I didn't like it as an A story. Also, we go from a B- to a C+ because... well... I wasn't buying the way some of the scenes were pulled off.

Angry Vir just seemed awkward more so than, ya know, angry... and Garibaldi drunk was more silly at this point than anything. We've already had 2 or 3 scenes with Garibaldi being drunk... how many more times do we need to show it?

Estelyn February 5th 11 19:43

Re: EpDis: Meditations On The Abyss
 
I can't help but think that it was foolish of Delenn to go to such a vulnerable place to meet Lennier, but you have to admit, she took care of herself! Minbari fingers must have strength! I was surprised that Lennier told her what Morden prophecied - that seems slightly out of character, admitting such a weakness.

Apparently even over 200 years from now, fast food places start with "Mc". ;) The Vir subplot is amusing.

Captain Montoya is a very likeable character. He shows good judgement and wisdom in the way he handles Lennier and Findell. The latter is definitely not like most Minbari we have met, and I must chime in with those who don't particularly like him. I can't imagine such a whiny Ranger.

Favourite G'Kar line in this episode: "From laughter comes wisdom."

Alioth September 8th 11 01:37

Re: EpDis: Meditations On The Abyss
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Estelyn (Post 367637)
I was surprised that Lennier told her what Morden prophecied - that seems slightly out of character, admitting such a weakness.

It showed that he valued the Rangers' mission and Delenn's work above himself, such that he felt it prudent to warn her of the possibility of his betrayal (if the prophecies of "the Day of the Dead" are to be taken seriously) even if he couldn't foresee how he could do it. Maybe he hoped Delenn, being warned, could somehow see it coming when it did (maybe knowing him better than he did himself, which she did in some ways) and prevent it, for his own and all of their sakes.

Lennier's Tears May 6th 15 00:46

Re: EpDis: Meditations On The Abyss
 
Seeing Delenn lie to Sheridan makes me kind of uncomfortable. That whole thing is sort of weird .. Even though it's perfectly plausible that Sheridan is indeed too concerned about the wellbeing of people close to him since Marcus' death. But, it seems to me that she could have convinced him of the necessity of this mission, rather than going through all this trouble of organizing secret meetings and lying. It seems like a bit of an awkward setup to further the "bitter Lennier" plot.

I can sort of see what Jan mentioned in the other thread, about how Delenn is not keeping her distance from Lennier, even though she knows he is romantically interested in her, and is pretty bitter about it. It's understandable because they have become so close and she presumably misses the friendship they once had, but yea .. not helping. Now that I'm looking for it, I can see how there might be some hope in Lennier's expression when he asks Delenn why she wanted to see him, and then disappointment when she's all business.

There's a list item in the "Analysis" section of the Lurker's Guide main page that reads like this:
Quote:

Lennier cautioned Findell about joining the Anla'shok for the wrong reasons -- but it's arguable that that's exactly what Lennier himself has done, since one of his goals is to impress Delenn (he said as much in "The Very Long Night of Londo Mollari.") That may hold the key to his eventual betrayal of the Rangers as predicted by Morden ("Day of the Dead.") If faced with a choice of serving Delenn directly or serving the Anla'shok, he might well choose the former, especially if the choice involved a significant threat to Delenn. Such an eventuality appears to be foreshadowed here in the conversation between Delenn and Lennier.
That sort of echoes what we've been discussing in the other thread. Not to repeat the obvious too many times, but clearly we're not the only ones who saw that as the most plausible scenario.

As for the other stuff in this episode: That "Easter Egg Hunt" seems quite dangerous. Do we have any numbers on how many Ranger trainees actually die during training? It seems like that would happen ...

The Centauri plot isn't really moving forward in this episode, other than that we find out the Drazi somehow know or suspect the Centauri are behind the attacks. The angry Vir stuff is sort of amusing, but mostly because of Londo's reaction.

Side note about the Drazi: Londo refers to the Drazi ambassador's wife with she/her. So there are male and female Drazi. Do they all look alike, or do we only ever see male Drazi?

Satai September 8th 15 23:23

Re: EpDis: Meditations On The Abyss
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Lennier's Tears (Post 451524)
Seeing Delenn lie to Sheridan makes me kind of uncomfortable. That whole thing is sort of weird .. Even though it's perfectly plausible that Sheridan is indeed too concerned about the wellbeing of people close to him since Marcus' death. But, it seems to me that she could have convinced him of the necessity of this mission, rather than going through all this trouble of organizing secret meetings and lying. It seems like a bit of an awkward setup to further the "bitter Lennier" plot.

I can sort of see what Jan mentioned in the other thread, about how Delenn is not keeping her distance from Lennier, even though she knows he is romantically interested in her, and is pretty bitter about it. It's understandable because they have become so close and she presumably misses the friendship they once had, but yea .. not helping. Now that I'm looking for it, I can see how there might be some hope in Lennier's expression when he asks Delenn why she wanted to see him, and then disappointment when she's all business.

There's a list item in the "Analysis" section of the Lurker's Guide main page that reads like this:
Quote:

Lennier cautioned Findell about joining the Anla'shok for the wrong reasons -- but it's arguable that that's exactly what Lennier himself has done, since one of his goals is to impress Delenn (he said as much in "The Very Long Night of Londo Mollari.") That may hold the key to his eventual betrayal of the Rangers as predicted by Morden ("Day of the Dead.") If faced with a choice of serving Delenn directly or serving the Anla'shok, he might well choose the former, especially if the choice involved a significant threat to Delenn. Such an eventuality appears to be foreshadowed here in the conversation between Delenn and Lennier.
That sort of echoes what we've been discussing in the other thread. Not to repeat the obvious too many times, but clearly we're not the only ones who saw that as the most plausible scenario.

As for the other stuff in this episode: That "Easter Egg Hunt" seems quite dangerous. Do we have any numbers on how many Ranger trainees actually die during training? It seems like that would happen ...

The Centauri plot isn't really moving forward in this episode, other than that we find out the Drazi somehow know or suspect the Centauri are behind the attacks. The angry Vir stuff is sort of amusing, but mostly because of Londo's reaction.

Side note about the Drazi: Londo refers to the Drazi ambassador's wife with she/her. So there are male and female Drazi. Do they all look alike, or do we only ever see male Drazi?

I thought Delenn rubbing Lennier's cheek with the back of her hand was very intimate. I've seen some say she is a manipulative character. I hate to think she's leading him on but you gotta wonder (this is my first run through of the show). I'm married and i'd never touch a man like that.

Renee

Jan September 9th 15 12:38

Re: EpDis: Meditations On The Abyss
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Satai (Post 451947)
I thought Delenn rubbing Lennier's cheek with the back of her hand was very intimate. I've seen some say she is a manipulative character. I hate to think she's leading him on but you gotta wonder (this is my first run through of the show). I'm married and i'd never touch a man like that.

Renee

Hi Renee! Nice to see you over here!

I don't think she was manipulating him, just that she was lonely. But it was, as she would say "massively unwise".

Jan

Satai September 9th 15 16:20

Re: EpDis: Meditations On The Abyss
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jan (Post 451948)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Satai (Post 451947)
I thought Delenn rubbing Lennier's cheek with the back of her hand was very intimate. I've seen some say she is a manipulative character. I hate to think she's leading him on but you gotta wonder (this is my first run through of the show). I'm married and i'd never touch a man like that.

Renee

Hi Renee! Nice to see you over here!

I don't think she was manipulating him, just that she was lonely. But it was, as she would say "massively unwise".

Jan

Haha! Hi Jan!

Nice another place I can give my opinion! ;)

Renee

Talvitar September 7th 18 19:22

Re: EpDis: Meditations On The Abyss
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Lennier's Tears (Post 451524)
Seeing Delenn lie to Sheridan makes me kind of uncomfortable. That whole thing is sort of weird .. Even though it's perfectly plausible that Sheridan is indeed too concerned about the wellbeing of people close to him since Marcus' death. But, it seems to me that she could have convinced him of the necessity of this mission, rather than going through all this trouble of organizing secret meetings and lying. It seems like a bit of an awkward setup to further the "bitter Lennier" plot.

Agree, it's weird. It's also not, I think, true to Delenn's character. She has been a very independent agent thus far. Am I correct in remembering that she, in fact, is the leader the Rangers at this point so she really doesn't need anyone's approval? I do understand that marriage might change things (so Delenn shouldn't only talk about Sheridan's emotions - also her emotions have changed her behaviour) but since when has Delenn really thought that going behind someone's back is honourable? If Sheridan finds out he was lied to "for his own good", will he be happy? (the dreaded words "I never meant to hurt you" could be uttered by Delenn...)

Quote:

I can sort of see what Jan mentioned in the other thread, about how Delenn is not keeping her distance from Lennier, even though she knows he is romantically interested in her, and is pretty bitter about it. It's understandable because they have become so close and she presumably misses the friendship they once had, but yea .. not helping. Now that I'm looking for it, I can see how there might be some hope in Lennier's expression when he asks Delenn why she wanted to see him, and then disappointment when she's all business.
Yeah, I was watching the exact part of the dialogue. "Sheridan is probably the most important reason of keeping this meeting just between us", says Delenn, and the look on Lennier's face... "What is it that you want from me?" - you can HEAR the hope-against-hope. She's arranging a meeting behind his husband's back. I just saved her. We're sitting here in a tight nook, in secret...
"Your help", says Delenn, and while Lennier's face doesn't exactly fall, it kind of freezes, just a bit. (good acting, btw)

One thing that really caught my eye about Lennier in this episode is that he's become bold. The way he looks at Delenn. The manner he carries himself. Long gone are the final traces of the hesitant, apologetic Lennier-style of basically every single episode he's ever been in.
He's grown and gained confidence.
I guess he's already taken the first steps to the Dark Side which is just too bad because I *like* this bold and assertive Lennier :D This is the first time *ever* when I for a fleeting moment thought: wow, Lennier is actually a bit... hot...!

"He knows me and he also loves me, and sometimes the one gets in the way of the other".
Lennier looks down, and smiles oh so very very slightly - sadly? in self-irony? - and responds: "Yes, I imagine it could do that"...
I bet you might know how knowing and loving someone might get into the way of doing your job...

And RIGHT then Delenn seems to remember the universal truth of "chicks dig scars" (:rolleyes:), and caresses Lennier's cheek. Someone here said that it was a really intimate thing to do, and it IS. How is it possible that Delenn doesn't realize what she's doing to him? She's so intelligent and... well. Haven't we talked also before that B5 is so great just because it doesn't paint pretty pictures of wonderfully perfect people? So Delenn makes mistakes with Lennier - and this is one of them. It's cruel.

Quote:

There's a list item in the "Analysis" section of the Lurker's Guide main page that reads like this:
Quote:

Lennier cautioned Findell about joining the Anla'shok for the wrong reasons -- but it's arguable that that's exactly what Lennier himself has done, since one of his goals is to impress Delenn (he said as much in "The Very Long Night of Londo Mollari.") That may hold the key to his eventual betrayal of the Rangers as predicted by Morden ("Day of the Dead.") If faced with a choice of serving Delenn directly or serving the Anla'shok, he might well choose the former, especially if the choice involved a significant threat to Delenn. Such an eventuality appears to be foreshadowed here in the conversation between Delenn and Lennier.
That sort of echoes what we've been discussing in the other thread. Not to repeat the obvious too many times, but clearly we're not the only ones who saw that as the most plausible scenario.
Yep, I think it's really obvious. Oh, the irony of that scene...

I really liked this episode, all of it! G'Kar was excellent, Londo highly amusing, and I always like it when Vir asserts himself :D
Changing of G'Kar's eye was icky!
Captain Montoya was excellent. Findell didn't annoy me at all. He was young and totally in the wrong place, for the wrong reasons, and too young and proud to admit/accept it. Montoya shows him a way out, and a way which actually lets Findell benefit from what he's learned of the Rangers and of himself. Good stuff.
Drunk Garibaldi was tragic but also just a bit funny. "Here, linky linky linky... oh, the missing link!" **hee hee hee**


(ooooh, I've become a Ranger! When did that happen? Only noticed it at my 34th message. Yay, no more Lurker!)

Jan September 8th 18 10:47

Re: EpDis: Meditations On The Abyss
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Talvitar (Post 461231)
(ooooh, I've become a Ranger! When did that happen? Only noticed it at my 34th message. Yay, no more Lurker!)

Just wanted to mention that I'm enjoying your posts even if I'm not saying much. I'm pretty sure I've said anything cogent that I have to say several times in most of these threads. But I'm enjoying your insights.

Jan

Talvitar September 8th 18 11:26

Re: EpDis: Meditations On The Abyss
 
Jan, thanks for your kind words :) Much appreciated :) I do like to comment and ramble on about my thoughts but I have a kind of an inferiority complex here - there are so many people here who KNOW so much and have written such thoughtful analyses - and I'm just, well, rambling :) for the sheer joy of being in the company of fellow B5 fans :)

Jan September 8th 18 14:28

Re: EpDis: Meditations On The Abyss
 
Rambling is good. Basking with fellow fans is even better. Intelligent discussion of something mutually beloved is best of all!

One of the many nice things about B5 is how the more you know about it, the more you can appreciate it. And folks who know stuff are usually more than happy to share because sharing one's joy increases it.

Lennier's Tears September 9th 18 00:44

Re: EpDis: Meditations On The Abyss
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Talvitar (Post 461234)
Jan, thanks for your kind words :) Much appreciated :) I do like to comment and ramble on about my thoughts but I have a kind of an inferiority complex here - there are so many people here who KNOW so much and have written such thoughtful analyses - and I'm just, well, rambling :) for the sheer joy of being in the company of fellow B5 fans :)

Please continue rambling! As I said in another thread, I've been getting email notifications about your posts and I've started looking forward to them. I really don't think you should feel inferior to any other posters. Your rambling made me want to log in to this forum again. Discussing B5 is one of my very favorite things in the universe, and it's great to see different people's insights/comments/thoughts.

Looney September 10th 18 12:44

Re: EpDis: Meditations On The Abyss
 
I've been rambling for months and months! Where's the love?! :wtf:

:p

:guffaw::lol::guffaw::lol::guffaw:

Lennier's Tears September 10th 18 14:08

Re: EpDis: Meditations On The Abyss
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Looney (Post 461243)
I've been rambling for months and months! Where's the love?! :wtf:

:p

:guffaw::lol::guffaw::lol::guffaw:

Haha, yes, I was noticing you posted a lot as well! I definitely didn't get as many emails about that, though. I think you posted a bunch in the handful of threads I haven't gotten to yet, plus posting multiple times in the same thread, which I wouldn't get a notification for. I am very pleased that you are here also! :D And I love when threads get more than one new post and there's actual discussion and stuff!

I love reading everyone's B5 insights! The old timers here sometimes have some "inside" information, but I'm equally interested in reading the opinions of people who just registered, who might be on their first re-watch in 15 years, or watching for the first time ever, OR watch every year but never discussed before.

Looney September 11th 18 00:53

Re: EpDis: Meditations On The Abyss
 
Yeah I started a rewatch and another rewatch and a few others. :lol: I should post after every episode I watch, but unfortunately I either have big gaps in my viewing or I start watching and find it difficult to just watch one. Plus it is true I do just ramble. No one is interested in most of what I say, so I don't count on getting replies. :guffaw: ;)

So here is a Delenn / Lennier question. How is Delenn supposed to act toward Lennier? Not a new question, but a question I don't think anyone will ever be able to answer correctly and still allow Lennier to be a part of the show. :lol: She knows the situation, but she also knows she needs Lennier. What is she to do? The right thing to do is put some distance and a whole lot of time between them, but how does she live without his critical support? I definitely agree that her behavior can almost seem cruel at times, but I always ask myself how could she do it differently without cutting things off completely?

Jan September 11th 18 10:34

Re: EpDis: Meditations On The Abyss
 
My feeling is that she *should* have made it very clear that there was no hope then or ever. And he could have still been part of the show and done much of what he did only with Sheridan requesting him to find out about the Centauri rather than Delenn. I'm sure JMS could have come up with a reason why only Lennier was suitable for the job. Then we'd've had the tragi-comedy of watching their awkward interactions.

Talvitar September 11th 18 16:03

Re: EpDis: Meditations On The Abyss
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jan (Post 461251)
My feeling is that she *should* have made it very clear that there was no hope then or ever. And he could have still been part of the show and done much of what he did only with Sheridan requesting him to find out about the Centauri rather than Delenn. I'm sure JMS could have come up with a reason why only Lennier was suitable for the job. Then we'd've had the tragi-comedy of watching their awkward interactions.

This.
I think that they should've had an open discussion about the situation. Bring it all out in the open. Yes, it would've been awkward but a) they were Minbari religous caste and thus I think they were trained to think (also difficult issues) and express their thoughts, b) it would've been correct of Delenn to act how an employer should act (basically that was what she was in relation to Lennier) and take charge of a potentially uncomfortable and flammable situation. She was the ambassador, diplomat, leader - she should've acted as one.
How that could've been done properly within a 40-minute episode without resorting to easy choices is another matter, but, you know, that's how it should've been done had Delenn and Lennier been "real people" as opposed to fictional characters where this whole triangle had to be upheld in order to things to progress as they did... (what a horribly convoluted sentence that was...sorry!)
On the other hand, people don't act rationally, people don't talk openly when it's obvious that would be the only intelligent way to act. People assume, and don't speak out loud. So in that way, B5 imitates life. Yay...

Also, what Jan said: if they had "defused" the triangle in the oldfashioned way of actually talking about it, we might have had a whole other relationship plotline where Sheridan, Delenn and Lennier would have had to figure out how to coexist with the open knowledge of the (un)requited love-issues. Considering the generally excellent writing of B5 storylines, that might have been really interesting as well!

Hello to Lennier's Tears!!!! So good to see you here! I've read so many of your old posts (and agreed with most of them) and thought "oh damn, that was three years ago, that person is not here anymore". I'm very glad I was wrong :)

I can continue with B5 on Sunday... my kids live with me every second week, and when they're here, I'm not really able to concentrate on my "own" tv shows. With them, it's other stuff, like Stargate Atlantis :)

Lennier's Tears September 12th 18 01:27

Re: EpDis: Meditations On The Abyss
 
Hi Talvitar, I look forward to your future posts! :)

I think I've probably said this in other threads, but I tend to disagree that Delenn should have done anything about the "Lennier situation." I mean, I didn't even realize people thought her behavior uncool, bordering on cruel until I started discussing it here. Mostly because I didn't pick up on some stuff that's there (I am very perceptive :p), but also because I just don't think that Lennier's feelings are her problem to manage. I mean, sure, she is older, wiser, she can clearly see what is happening, AND she's his boss. She could maybe try to talk to him about it. But, I don't think she was being unclear to him about her feelings, even if she said nothing. I mean, she did marry someone else, that seems fairly unambiguous :p If he can't accept the unspoken but obvious "DEFINITELY not going to happen, dude" I don't think a conversation will help, either.

I agree that it would be hard for Delenn to operate without Lennier, what with him being her trusted aide. There are going to be things that she simply can't trust anyone else with. She has Sheridan as her life partner and him and other humans as allies in politics/war, but for Minbari stuff, she's going to need a trusted Minbari. How many of those does she have in her life at this point in time? I imagine she's just hoping he'll grow out of his funk. She COULD fire him, but I feel like it's ultimately up to him to decide if he can or can't live with this situation.

Karajorma September 12th 18 06:02

Re: EpDis: Meditations On The Abyss
 
I tend to agree. Delenn is trying to show Lennier that she will always care for him and always be there for him. She knows how he feels for her, nothing is ever going to happen between them but she wants Lennier to know that she isn't going to change her feelings for him. He'll always be her trusted friend and ally. For Delenn that's something she would feel is important. Many people in a similar situation might take steps to distance themselves from someone who has a crush on them. Delenn doesn't want to do that, she wants to give him time to work things out and get over her without changing their relationship.

Is that going to work? Well if Lennier had met a sexy female ranger in training and fallen for her, yes. Otherwise, it depends. But I don't consider it to be an unreasonable thing for Delenn to do.


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