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Lennier's Tears May 1st 15 02:54

Re: EpDis: Day Of The Dead
 
That conversation with Marcus in Ceremonies of Light and Dark is interesting. Lennier says he loves Delenn, but not in a romantic way.. he claims his love for her is more noble and more pure. I don't believe him when he says that. But, now that I think about it, I don't know if that is because I know what comes later, or because it just sounds ridiculous. I DID believe that he was accepting the fact they'd never be together, and that his love for her would remain a secret.

I didn't pick up on any bitterness from Lennier in Racing Mars, either. He just dutifully waits outside the bedroom with the other Minbari while Sheridan and Delenn "discover each other's pleasure centers". I didn't see the slightest hint of jealousy there. There's some obvious disapproval at the end there ("Woohoo??"), but that seems to me more about Sheridan not taking the ritual seriously or something like that. And anyway, that whole scene is just there for laughs, right?

I believe you are right about Lennier's inexperience and black/white morality, and that something rather interesting could have happened with that ...

Mororless May 2nd 15 07:22

Re: EpDis: Day Of The Dead
 
You could argue I spose that potentially ending the series after season 4 ment that JMS reduced any resentment from Lennier in season 4 he might have planned.

In terms of playing off of a moral naivety I think JMS did that well with Ivanova prior to this. Her extreme reaction to the situation with Marcus works because its not just a personal loss but someone with a similar kind of black/white world view judging themselves in a negative manner.

In Ivanova's case we do get some hint to resolution with taking up the Ranger One position, with the lack of follow up to Lennier we don't really get this.

deaded May 2nd 15 13:04

Re: EpDis: Day Of The Dead
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Lennier's Tears (Post 451475)
I guess part of my problem is that I do not understand how having a wedding fundamentally alters a relationship. That isn't to say that it doesn't, in general, just that I personally don't get how changing your relationship status in the eyes of the law changes your relationship status in any other way. I have been married, and for me, having a ceremony and signing some papers didn't make the relationship different at all. Except maybe that for several weeks after the wedding I kept laughing at the idea that I was married because it seemed so ridiculous. But, that's just me :p

So, it's hard for me to grasp why Lennier is so hung up on the marriage thing. He's all "well, now that you're married, I've got to get out of your way". Was he maybe just hopeful that as long as Sheridan and Delenn weren't married, maybe there was still a chance they'd decide they didn't want to be together after all

I think that's exactly it and I'm not sure why you have a hard time grasping that since you are obviously very intelligent and have excellent taste 8-) Maybe you are looking at marriage from the inside, not from the perspective of the shucked oyster shell. I'm certain Lennier thought that eventually she would come around and see him in a different light. From his perspective she slammed the door in his face. She made a forever promise to someone else. Essentially (in Lennier's mind), by getting married Delenn was saying to him, "You will never be any closer to me than this. Stop where you are. There is officially and permanently no hope that I will ever love you."

Marriage is pretty serious, I imagine especially to a Minbari. I would submit that a person who has had a divorce (or even thinks that divorce is an option) could not really appreciate the solidity or finality that an untainted romantic makes it out to be.

Springer May 2nd 15 20:48

Re: EpDis: Day Of The Dead
 
I'm with deaded on this, that's exactly how it feels to the person on the outside. In fact, I wonder if JMS was writing from some personal experience about this.

I don't mind Lennier's storyline taking this turn, what I did mind is a) it gave us some missed opportunities for Lennier to go off on some kind of path of self-discovery beyond the Rangers and b) there is no way in hell it would have even crossed his mind to leave Sheridan to die, no matter how jealous he was – that simply was not in his character.

I can see now why Morden came to him in Day of the Dead though. By this stage, I don't think Lennier could tell you who he was, but he could definitely tell you what he wanted.

Lennier's Tears May 2nd 15 20:56

Re: EpDis: Day Of The Dead
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mororless (Post 451494)
You could argue I spose that potentially ending the series after season 4 ment that JMS reduced any resentment from Lennier in season 4 he might have planned.

This had never occurred to me ... Interesting suggestion!

Quote:

In terms of playing off of a moral naivety I think JMS did that well with Ivanova prior to this. Her extreme reaction to the situation with Marcus works because its not just a personal loss but someone with a similar kind of black/white world view judging themselves in a negative manner.

In Ivanova's case we do get some hint to resolution with taking up the Ranger One position, with the lack of follow up to Lennier we don't really get this.
I'm not sure if I would agree that Ivanova's reaction is "extreme". That whole situation is sort of "extreme" so I don't know what a "normal" reaction would be ... I do agree that we get some resolution with her character, but not for Lennier. I would have loved to have seen more of him, but you can't resolve every chararcter's storyline, I suppose.

Quote:

Originally Posted by deaded (Post 451495)

I think that's exactly it and I'm not sure why you have a hard time grasping that since you are obviously very intelligent and have excellent taste 8-) Maybe you are looking at marriage from the inside, not from the perspective of the shucked oyster shell. I'm certain Lennier thought that eventually she would come around and see him in a different light. From his perspective she slammed the door in his face. She made a forever promise to someone else. Essentially (in Lennier's mind), by getting married Delenn was saying to him, "You will never be any closer to me than this. Stop where you are. There is officially and permanently no hope that I will ever love you."

Marriage is pretty serious, I imagine especially to a Minbari. I would submit that a person who has had a divorce (or even thinks that divorce is an option) could not really appreciate the solidity or finality that an untainted romantic makes it out to be.

I'm totally willing to accept that the problem is with me, and not with the writing here (my obvious excellent taste notwithstanding :lol: ). Clearly I have never been an untainted romantic ... Or I can't remember being one, anyway!

Also, excellent point about how marriage ceremonies are probably rather different in Minbari culture. I imagine that marriage means rather more to the average Minbari than it does to me.

Lennier's Tears May 2nd 15 20:57

Re: EpDis: Day Of The Dead
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Springer (Post 451497)
b) there is no way in hell it would have even crossed his mind to leave Sheridan to die, no matter how jealous he was that simply was not in his character.

Yes, that right there, is the crux of the matter.

Quote:

I can see now why Morden came to him in Day of the Dead though. By this stage, I don't think Lennier could tell you who he was, but he could definitely tell you what he wanted.
This makes perfect sense.

Jan May 3rd 15 00:08

Re: EpDis: Day Of The Dead
 
What nobody's mentioned yet is that Delenn kind of encouraged him to hope for more even after she was with John. Meeting him in Downbelow and asking him to run a covert operation was one thing but then touching him and wanting to keep him after just to talk. She *knew* that he was in love with her but did nothing at all to discourage him. It was easy for him to convince himself that there might be hope and that if John weren't there, Delenn might well turn to him.

Jan

Lennier's Tears May 3rd 15 01:06

Re: EpDis: Day Of The Dead
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jan (Post 451502)
What nobody's mentioned yet is that Delenn kind of encouraged him to hope for more even after she was with John. Meeting him in Downbelow and asking him to run a covert operation was one thing but then touching him and wanting to keep him after just to talk. She *knew* that he was in love with her but did nothing at all to discourage him. It was easy for him to convince himself that there might be hope and that if John weren't there, Delenn might well turn to him.

Jan

Wow, what?
Talk about things I don't pick up on! :o

This honestly would never in a million years have occurred to me! Do you mean she purposefully kept him on the hook for some reason or other, or that maybe she could have had some interest in him, if not for Sheridan? In the way Delenn treats Lennier, I don't see anything but mentor-acolyte relationship .. That is to say, I do see them becoming close, which seems kind of unavoidable under the circumstances, but I don't see her encouraging him in his romantic interest for her, at all.

Jan May 3rd 15 01:55

Re: EpDis: Day Of The Dead
 
Next time you watch 'Meditations on the Abyss', watch the scene between Delenn and Lennier when she assigns him his mission. Delenn breaks the finger of they guy threatening her and Lennier finishes the fight. He reminds her that he's sworn to never leave her and he'll be at her side no matter the cost. Then there's the talk about how it was necessary to keep things from Sheridan and Lennier asks Delenn what she wants of him and there's a spark of wild hope there until she tells him it's a mission and he bows his head to get his composure. Delenn strokes his cheek when she asks about the scar on his face. When he wants to go to the White Star, she wants him to stay because she hasn't seen him for so long. and holds his chin when she tells him she could never think of him betraying the Anla'shok.

It's only four episodes later when he declares his love for her in 'The Fall of Centauri Prime' and she says "I know".

No, I really don't think she was trying to keep him on the hook but she was lonely for a friend and knew that she could count on him so she (in my opinion) behaved badly, almost cruelly by behavior like I described above. Far kinder would be for her to have just let him go to the Rangers and try to forget her.

The Lennier you see in this episode isn't the mild-mannered innocent acolyte we'd originally met. He'd talked himself into thinking that his love was 'nobler and purer', probably right up to the point when Delenn married Sheridan. From then on he referred to John as 'your partner' instead of 'your husband'. His expression changed when he looked at the picture of John and Delenn when he came to help them move to Minbar.

I had a feeling something bad was going to happen when I saw Lennier's expression when John came back from Z'ha'dum. He was very much *not* pleased at all. The signs were there - subtle, but there.

Jan.

Mororless May 3rd 15 04:36

Re: EpDis: Day Of The Dead
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Lennier's Tears (Post 451499)
[I'm not sure if I would agree that Ivanova's reaction is "extreme". That whole situation is sort of "extreme" so I don't know what a "normal" reaction would be ... I do agree that we get some resolution with her character, but not for Lennier. I would have loved to have seen more of him, but you can't resolve every chararcter's storyline, I suppose.

For Ivanova I would say the emotional breakdown in the short term was extreme but really I ment the whole situation including the self judgement and leaving B5. The latter was forced on JMS but I'm guessing it was considered a potential trap door and it works partly for that reason IMHO.

I'm unsure what JMS's plan was for Lennier in following spin offs originally but whilst coming to terms with your mistakes was a big theme on B5 it seemed generally that the "mistakes" tended to fit into the other characters. That is they were proportional to the morals of those characters and with Lennier I don't think you needed to go this far to setup a similar situation. I would say as well that by having the "mistakes" fit into the characters personality/history they tended to carry more weight since they were much more of a judgement on them and a catalyst for change.

deaded May 3rd 15 12:40

Re: EpDis: Day Of The Dead
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Springer (Post 451497)
...and b) there is no way in hell it would have even crossed his mind to leave Sheridan to die, no matter how jealous he was that simply was not in his character.

EXACTLY

deaded May 3rd 15 12:53

Re: EpDis: Day Of The Dead
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Lennier's Tears (Post 451504)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jan (Post 451502)
What nobody's mentioned yet is that Delenn kind of encouraged him to hope for more even after she was with John. Meeting him in Downbelow and asking him to run a covert operation was one thing but then touching him and wanting to keep him after just to talk. She *knew* that he was in love with her but did nothing at all to discourage him. It was easy for him to convince himself that there might be hope and that if John weren't there, Delenn might well turn to him.

Jan

Wow, what?
Talk about things I don't pick up on! :o

This honestly would never in a million years have occurred to me! Do you mean she purposefully kept him on the hook for some reason or other, or that maybe she could have had some interest in him, if not for Sheridan? In the way Delenn treats Lennier, I don't see anything but mentor-acolyte relationship .. That is to say, I do see them becoming close, which seems kind of unavoidable under the circumstances, but I don't see her encouraging him in his romantic interest for her, at all.

Excellent insight on Jan's part. This is exactly what women do. They want the rough and tough powerful guy but they also want the sensitive guy to still be on their chain. I've seen it many times. I've been on the chain. I remember back in the '70s we had a saying; "Nice guys don't get laid." The cheerleader still loves to be with the quarterback but she also wants the nerd to help her with her homework and wash her car. In my mind I saw Delenn above that but no, she's a chick.

We used to call it the "Double X disease." But I'm not even sure if Minbari have DNA.

SHAME on Delenn, but yeah. Great point Jan!

Jan May 3rd 15 17:00

Re: EpDis: Day Of The Dead
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by deaded (Post 451510)
Excellent insight on Jan's part. This is exactly what women do. They want the rough and tough powerful guy but they also want the sensitive guy to still be on their chain. I've seen it many times. I've been on the chain. I remember back in the '70s we had a saying; "Nice guys don't get laid." The cheerleader still loves to be with the quarterback but she also wants the nerd to help her with her homework and wash her car. In my mind I saw Delenn above that but no, she's a chick.

We used to call it the "Double X disease." But I'm not even sure if Minbari have DNA.

SHAME on Delenn, but yeah. Great point Jan!

Wow, that was certainly unexpected. And quite unwelcome. I never expected or thought it likely that a comment about a fictional character would unleash such a vitriolic reaction against women. How...distasteful.

For pete's sake, Delenn underwent an enormous transformation and was shunned by almost everyone she knew. Only one person near to her knew her involvement in the E/M war. Her conscience caused her to be responsible for breaking the backbone of Minbari society. Is it any wonder she wanted her dearest friend close to her?? No, she very much shouldn't have done anything at all to encourage him once she realized his love for her but it's certainly understandable and hardly worthy of a simplistic and misogynist "This is exactly what women do." Any man would have probably done the same. Or don't they get lonely?

That said, and not to drag the thread too far off track, the wonderful thing about the B5 characters is that they're *human*, no matter how alien. Sheridan's unconsciously prejudiced against Lyta due to her not being in the military *and* being a telepath. Franklin's a bit of a shallow womanizer when not obsessed with his work as a doctor. Ivanova's so repressed she might shatter. G'Kar's anger almost destroyed him. Londo's misguided ambition almost tore his planet apart. Marcus was a martyrdom looking for a place to die. Need I go on?

Jan

Lennier's Tears May 3rd 15 18:28

Re: EpDis: Day Of The Dead
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by deaded (Post 451510)

Excellent insight on Jan's part. This is exactly what women do. They want the rough and tough powerful guy but they also want the sensitive guy to still be on their chain. I've seen it many times. I've been on the chain. I remember back in the '70s we had a saying; "Nice guys don't get laid." The cheerleader still loves to be with the quarterback but she also wants the nerd to help her with her homework and wash her car. In my mind I saw Delenn above that but no, she's a chick.

We used to call it the "Double X disease." But I'm not even sure if Minbari have DNA.

SHAME on Delenn, but yeah. Great point Jan!

I can't tell if this is sarcasm, but either way that's a VERY uncomfortable read. It's generally a good idea to not make jokes that are indistinguishable from your run-of-the-mill, regular misogyny (or any other hateful speech), especially on a public forum like this, where you don't know the people who are reading your words. At least two of us here can't tell whether that was misogyny or an attempt to mock misogyny, so it just added to the general misogynist background noise of the internet.

Just a few quick points for anyone taking that stuff seriously:
  • women are human beings
  • not all women are cheerleaders
  • cheerleaders are individuals, with distinct personalities
  • Not all nerds are male
  • This type of generalization makes no sense. If you wouldn't conclude that "all men are X" based on one asshole screwing you over, why would you conclude that "all women are X" based on one asshole screwing you over?

I come here to talk about my favorite sci fi show, not to debate whether women are people. I can go do that pretty much anywhere else, even though that clearly is a fact that shouldn't ever be up for debate.

deaded May 3rd 15 22:22

Re: EpDis: Day Of The Dead
 
Sorry about the sarcasm

Lennier's Tears May 6th 15 01:28

Re: EpDis: Day Of The Dead
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jan (Post 451505)
Next time you watch 'Meditations on the Abyss', watch the scene between Delenn and Lennier when she assigns him his mission. Delenn breaks the finger of they guy threatening her and Lennier finishes the fight. He reminds her that he's sworn to never leave her and he'll be at her side no matter the cost. Then there's the talk about how it was necessary to keep things from Sheridan and Lennier asks Delenn what she wants of him and there's a spark of wild hope there until she tells him it's a mission and he bows his head to get his composure. Delenn strokes his cheek when she asks about the scar on his face. When he wants to go to the White Star, she wants him to stay because she hasn't seen him for so long. and holds his chin when she tells him she could never think of him betraying the Anla'shok.

I just got to that episode and I think I understand what you're getting at ... But, I'll take my comments to the appropriate thread :)


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