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-   -   EpDis: Day Of The Dead (http://www.b5tv.com/showthread.php?t=9472)

vacantlook December 5th 06 14:12

EpDis: Day Of The Dead
 
Refresher Links:
Lurker's Guide Main Page for Day Of The Dead
Lurker's Guide Extended Synopsis for Day Of The Dead

MMarin December 5th 06 14:45

Re: EpDis: Day Of The Dead
 
Day of the Dead is one of the rare episodes from the fifth season that I actually love. Sure, I might have wanted to see some different people facing the ghosts from the past (like for instance Sheridan instead of Lennier) but as it is the episode is still so full of tense atmosphere that it deserves an A.

AnlaShokGrey December 5th 06 15:24

Re: EpDis: Day Of The Dead
 
My biggest gripe with the episode is the absurd notion that G'Kar, at that point in his character's arc, would be reticent -- frightened, even! -- to face the spiritual unknown. Bah, humbug!

Ranger1 December 5th 06 15:34

Re: EpDis: Day Of The Dead
 
i can buy G'Kar's fear, but what i always wondered was why was Garibaldi visited by dodger, sure if he wasn't with lise then it could be the ghost of a missed opportunity, but i don't buy her as the ghost of missed opportunities in general. though Morden visiting Ranger Lennier was genius, because it is testament to his reasons for joining the honoured ranks of the anla'shak, he joined to try and escape his fate as an also ran in Delenn's life and as a result tried to kill Sheridan, whether or not he went back is unimportant, it gets an A all the way, the only episode in the Byron string to get one from me.

KoshN December 5th 06 16:05

Re: EpDis: Day Of The Dead
 
Quote:

i can buy G'Kar's fear, but what i always wondered was why was Garibaldi visited by dodger, sure if he wasn't with lise then it could be the ghost of a missed opportunity, but i don't buy her as the ghost of missed opportunities in general.

I get the feeling that Dodger wanted to see Garibaldi, i.e. that the impetus for that visit was from Dodger's end of things.

GKarsEye December 5th 06 16:14

Re: EpDis: Day Of The Dead
 
Quote:

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i can buy G'Kar's fear, but what i always wondered was why was Garibaldi visited by dodger, sure if he wasn't with lise then it could be the ghost of a missed opportunity, but i don't buy her as the ghost of missed opportunities in general.

I get the feeling that Dodger wanted to see Garibaldi, i.e. that the impetus for that visit was from Dodger's end of things.

I can't imagine (assuming a dead spirit can even exist and want to and is able to visit a living person) that she'd so very much want to hang out with some guy she met once who just didn't want to fuck her. Besides, the theme of the episode was that the people were visited by those who they needed to see.

I guess Garibaldi needed Dodger as someone who could offer him a bit of companionship that wasn't burdened with judgement and expectations. As much as Lise and Franklin and everybody around him cares about him, it's conditional and accompanied with demands: don't drink, do your job, etc. Dodger just wants to hang out and have a little fun. That's a nice feeling.

KoshN December 5th 06 16:24

Re: EpDis: Day Of The Dead
 
Quote:

My biggest gripe with the episode is the absurd notion that G'Kar, at that point in his character's arc, would be reticent -- frightened, even! -- to face the spiritual unknown. Bah, humbug!

Eh, G'Kar was probably reacting based upon what he'd heard as a child, about the Brakiri Day of the Dead. Also, there are probably a few people in G'Kar's pre-enlightenment past, that he'd rather avoid. A bit of reflexive apprehension is understandable, even for 2262 G'Kar.

Joseph DeMartino December 5th 06 16:34

Re: EpDis: Day Of The Dead
 
Quote:

My biggest gripe with the episode is the absurd notion that G'Kar, at that point in his character's arc, would be reticent -- frightened, even! -- to face the spiritual unknown. Bah, humbug!

I took G'Kar's reaction to be more like Gandalf's rejection of the Ring. The Barkiri are messing around with powerful forces that they little understand (as far as G'Kar can tell) and which have tremendous potential for evil. I think he wants to stay away from it all precisely because at this point in his spiritual journey (where his wisdom has already made him the wong kind of religious figure) he fears that he might be able to tap into that power himself and he has no idea if he would control it or it him. There's also the question of lying or false spirits. If he meets G'Quon will it be the real one, a fake or some figment of his own imagination and ego dressed up as G'Quon to tell G'Kar what he wants to hear. And how will his followers react? No one will believe him if he says he has no vistor, they'll just keep badgering him until he tells them. And how much worse will things get for him if word gets out that G'Quon personally visited G'Kar from the Great Beyond.

I think there are all sorts of reasons besides cowardice that G'Kar might fear the very notion of what is about to happen and not only avoid it himself, but counsel Lochley against allowing it and others from participating.

A lot of people I know of widely varying spiritual beliefs avoid things like Ouija boards on the purely prudential grounds that if you believe in spirits you don't want to open an unctrolled door to whoever might be wandering around out there. It isn't so much fear as humility that suggests there might be things in the universe that we can't handle and are better left un-messed-with. G'Kar's attitude towards the Dead is not unlike his attitude towards the Walkers at Sigma 927. :)

Regards,

Joe

Shaal Mayan December 5th 06 17:06

Re: EpDis: Day Of The Dead
 
I just love this episode from season five there are very few that get an AAA .As for G'kar's reaction towards the dead was very realistic in that even G'kar is afraid or doesn't want to open a pandora's box if you will in the realm of something unknown.And maybe best left untouched.

puzzle December 5th 06 21:42

Re: EpDis: Day Of The Dead
 
It was a good episode, and a definite speculation starter.

I only found it unrealistic that nobody external (a third party, a curious bystander) showed up to record, measure, watch, reverse-engineer and analyse the event.

If it's a major Brakiri festival, and produces majorly unexplainable effects, I'm sure someone curious, or just hungry for technology, would have shown up and tried, by all peaceful means, to record, bug and log everything.

You can obviously tell that if I knew the background, I would try to. :D

However, I recognize that from a storytelling perspective, telling of the experiences of an oveteched analyst determined to solve the puzzle, might be dry and not so interesting, compared to direct subjective experiences of our favourite characters.

Chilli December 5th 06 21:59

Re: EpDis: Day Of The Dead
 
Main beef with the episode: Rebo and Zooty.

I thought it spoiled the whole concept of Rebo and Zooty to actually *see* them. And to find out that the aliens were all correct - they just aren't funny. At all.

KoshN December 5th 06 22:07

Re: EpDis: Day Of The Dead
 
Quote:

the Walkers at Sigma 927. :)

Regards,

Joe

Come on, Joe. 927? :lol: ;)

PillowRock December 5th 06 22:13

Re: EpDis: Day Of The Dead
 
Quote:

I only found it unrealistic that nobody external (a third party, a curious bystander) showed up to record, measure, watch, reverse-engineer and analyse the event.

Note that (per the Lurker's Guide) the Day of the Dead only occurs once every 200 years. It is entirely plausable that:

A) There had not been one since the Brakiri made contact with other races.

B) No non-Brakiri had ever experianced it before.

C) Non-Brakiri who had heard of it had discounted the stories of contacts as legends / "old wives' tales".

I'm not surprised that no non-Brakiri scientific group had taken it seriously enough to mount an investigation.

And if they *did* then that investigation would have taken place on the Brakiri home world (should that be allowed). Note that it wasn't until the beginning of the episode, *very* shortly before the occurance, that the Brakiri "acquired" the piece of B5 that allowed it to be part of their planet. Therefore, nobody could have planned an investigative trip to B5 (not to mention the fact that I would doubt that any investigator who did take old Brakiri reports seriously, and did know about the temporary buying of part of B5, would almost certainly still not expect the effects to occur on B5).

No, I don't find it at all "unrealistic" that there were no actual investigations into the phenomenon going on on Babylon 5.

GKarsEye December 5th 06 22:19

Re: EpDis: Day Of The Dead
 
I kind of dug Rebo & Zooty. Besides being a Pen & Teller fan (but only when they're together, 'cause Pen Jillette is an insufferable ass when he gets the spotlight alone), they just didn't seem funny to us because we never saw the set-ups of any of their jokes, and also because culture will change so much in 260 years.

puzzle December 5th 06 22:53

Re: EpDis: Day Of The Dead
 
Quote:

Note that (per the Lurker's Guide) the Day of the Dead only occurs once every 200 years. It is entirely plausable that:
A) There had not been one since the Brakiri made contact with other races.

Reminds me that I've never noticed if the beginning of Brakiri spaceflight has been assigned a date by any story.

Quote:

And if they *did* then that investigation would have taken place on the Brakiri home world (should that be allowed).

A good point. At least Brakiri themselves (who'd not consider it an old wives' tale, and of whom some would desire to figure it out) would probably take their chances at crunching the mystery on their homeworld.

Quote:

I would doubt that any investigator who did take old Brakiri reports seriously, and did know about the temporary buying of part of B5, would almost certainly still not expect the effects to occur on B5).

That's plausible. And information might not travel quickly enough for anyone to respond and collect comparison data on B5 once it started.

AnlaShokGrey December 5th 06 23:59

Re: EpDis: Day Of The Dead
 
Quote:

I kind of dug Rebo & Zooty. Besides being a Pen & Teller fan (but only when they're together, 'cause Pen Jillette is an insufferable ass when he gets the spotlight alone)

So much word to this, GKarsEye.

MMarin December 6th 06 00:20

Re: EpDis: Day Of The Dead
 
I have to agree with JMS when talking about Rebo and Zooty. His description brings a valid point to their comedic act.

Quote:

Neil kept the humor sort of off-base...operating on the assumption that there are some things that become au courant or funny because of context: Steve Martin's "excuuuuse me," for instance. Now, it ain't funny, it's just annoying...at the time, EVERYbody was saying it and laughing. R&Z are similar cultural phenomena...their "with a machine" catchphrase, for instance, which the crowd new and reacted to. To us, and Lochely, it didn't mean anything. Lochley's reaction was tailored to be EXACTLY the same as most women's (and some guy's) reaction to the Three Stooges: either it's funny, or you can't figure out why people are laughing.


Joseph DeMartino December 6th 06 00:21

Re: EpDis: Day Of The Dead
 
Quote:

Come on, Joe. 927? :lol: ;)

Hey, I had minor (outpatient) surgery on both feet Saturday morning, and I've either been in pain (at work) or on pain killers (at home) ever since. I'm surprised I've managed to type my name right as often as I have.

Quote:

I only found it unrealistic that nobody external (a third party, a curious bystander) showed up to record, measure, watch, reverse-engineer and analyse the event.

Well, Spengler and Stantz were all ready to go, but Venkman stopped them. :)

Regards,

Joe

AnlaShokGrey December 6th 06 01:40

Re: EpDis: Day Of The Dead
 
Quote:

Hey, I had minor (outpatient) surgery on both feet Saturday morning, and I've either been in pain (at work) or on pain killers (at home) ever since. I'm surprised I've managed to type my name right as often as I have.

Aw, had those sixth toes removed finally, Joe? :D Seriously though, many healing vibes headed your way, and I hope you feel better soon. Painkillers are a wonderful thing. Got class 2 narcotics, or the lightweight stuff? ;)

Quote:

Well, Spengler and Stantz were all ready to go, but Venkman stopped them. :)

Bwah! I think you ought to win the thread when you can shoehorn in a Ghostbusters reference. Nicely done.

Amy

Joseph DeMartino December 6th 06 02:15

Re: EpDis: Day Of The Dead
 
Quote:

Aw, had those sixth toes removed finally, Joe? :D

My sister thnks the (admittedly larger than usual) gap between my big toe and the rest of the toes on each of my feet is freakishly huge, and when we were kids used to tell our friends and neighbors that I'd had an extra toe removed from that spot. I think she was just jealous because she couldn't dial a rotary phone or pick up a key with her feet - skills which I thought would come in handy if we were ever tied up by burglars.

Quote:

Seriously though, many healing vibes headed your way, and I hope you feel better soon. Painkillers are a wonderful thing. Got class 2 narcotics, or the lightweight stuff? ;)

Tylenol-Codiene threes if you can believe it. And I had to ask the quack for that much. He sent me home with nothing but a presciption for anti-biotics, which I didn't question at the time since my toes were still numb from the anasthetic. But when that wore off a few hours later it felt like somebody had fitted a gom jabber to each foot. I called the office (which had closed), got the answering service which took a message for the doctor on call - who turned out to be my doctor. He called back a couple of hours later and I talked him into writing the scrip. Then I realized that pharmacies don't deliver any more. :) (There is one in the area that does nothing but deliveries, but you have to open an account in person before they'll accept prescriptions by phone or fax.) So I had to walk down three flights of stairs to my car, drive to the nearest Walgreens, walk to the phramacy counter at the back of ths store, then stand behind Ma Kettle as she balanced her checkbook, sorted all her coupons and change and negotiated a lasting peace betwen the Israelis and Palestinians before she finally got out of my way after picking up her drugs. Then I walked the length of the store again, across the parking lot, drove the five blocks to my place and climbed back up those three flights of stairs before collapsing on the couch and finding out the doctor had not supplied the oxycodone or morphine I had hoped for, but Tyllenol with a little cough suppressent. I compensated by taking two days worth the in the first 18 hours.

I had to come home a couple of hours early yesterday, myfirst full day back on my feet. (And the first wearing footwear of any kind since Saturday. Sneakers. Found out I had over-padded one toe, though, so it was kinda squished most of the day. Really couldn't change the dressing at work.) Today I got in a litle late, just beause everything takes longer when you're limping, but I lasted the whole day, even stayed a little late to finish getting all the network accounts for tomorrow's bi-weekly class of new highers set up on the network.

And thanks for the healing thoughts, I'm sure they'll help. :)

Joe

A_M_Swallow December 6th 06 02:17

Re: EpDis: Day Of The Dead
 
Quote:


Hey, I had minor (outpatient) surgery on both feet Saturday morning, and I've either been in pain (at work) or on pain killers (at home) ever since. I'm surprised I've managed to type my name right as often as I have.


I hope you get better soon. :(

KoshN December 6th 06 02:20

Re: EpDis: Day Of The Dead
 
Quote:

Quote:

Come on, Joe. 927? :lol: ;)

Hey, I had minor (outpatient) surgery on both feet Saturday morning, and I've either been in pain (at work) or on pain killers (at home) ever since. I'm surprised I've managed to type my name right as often as I have.

I've been noticing that you haven't been your usual self, lately. Hope you feel better soon. :)

KoshN December 6th 06 02:54

Re: EpDis: Day Of The Dead
 
Quote:


Quote:

Seriously though, many healing vibes headed your way, and I hope you feel better soon. Painkillers are a wonderful thing. Got class 2 narcotics, or the lightweight stuff? ;)

Tylenol-Codiene threes if you can believe it. And I had to ask the quack for that much.

OTOH, when I had a wisdom tooth pulled (which took a piece of bone with it) a couple months back, the oral surgeon gave me an Rx for Vicodin, which I never got filled because I had to drive. I just took Ibuprofen (Advil), the max dose, which dulled it a little.



Quote:

... then stand behind Ma Kettle as she balanced her checkbook, sorted all her coupons and change and negotiated a lasting peace betwen the Israelis and Palestinians before she finally got out of my way after picking up her drugs.

She gets around. Been behind her, myself.



Quote:

Then I walked the length of the store again, across the parking lot, drove the five blocks to my place and climbed back up those three flights of stairs before collapsing on the couch and finding out the doctor had not supplied the oxycodone or morphine I had hoped for, but Tyllenol with a little cough suppressent.

Urge to wring the quack's neck?

Joseph DeMartino December 6th 06 03:07

Re: EpDis: Day Of The Dead
 
Quote:

Urge to wring the quack's neck?

I wasn't feeling that charitable.

Think ... lower. ;)

Thanks to everyone for all the good wishes.

Joe

Galahad December 6th 06 08:42

Re: EpDis: Day Of The Dead
 
Quote:

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I kind of dug Rebo & Zooty. Besides being a Pen & Teller fan (but only when they're together, 'cause Pen Jillette is an insufferable ass when he gets the spotlight alone)

So much word to this, GKarsEye.

Didn't Bruce Boxleitner or somebody infer as much in an interview once? I'm sure I read that the other actors were getting narked with him.

Elipsis March 27th 08 13:45

Re: EpDis: Day Of The Dead
 
I gave this a C only to find to my surprise that I was the only one to have done so.


It didn't seem to fit into the universe very well. Everything else supernatural is pretty much explainable as technology (arguably even telepaths are just bi-products of Vorlon advancements in genetic manipulation), but this doesn't really fall into that category. It also was rather inconsistent.

For example, why was Morden prophetic whereas Lochley's sister was just confused about where she was and what was going on. Why did Lennier, Lochley, Garibaldi, and Londo all skirt around the big question of what the deceased had experienced over the time since they've been dead?

I understand that the characters don't understand the phenomenon either, but it sure doesn't seem to fit into the B5 universe cleanly.

Also, Reebo and Zooty were not very interesting... even as a Penn and Teller fan I found their existence superfluous.

Lolz at actual real life foreshadowing, "we're thinking of getting into politics." Which is exactly what they did with their Bullshit series.

Jan March 27th 08 14:50

Re: EpDis: Day Of The Dead
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Elipsis (Post 316982)
It didn't seem to fit into the universe very well. Everything else supernatural is pretty much explainable as technology (arguably even telepaths are just bi-products of Vorlon advancements in genetic manipulation), but this doesn't really fall into that category.

We never found out what it was that the Soul Hunters captured. We never found out why the Centauri are able to foresee their deaths or why some of them are legitimate prophets. If we include Crusade, we don't know how the Forgiveness being did what it did or anything about Galen's lover's message from beyond the grave. I'm pretty sure there are other instances I'm not remembering right now.

Jan

Truth_Seeker March 27th 08 17:46

Re: EpDis: Day Of The Dead
 
The episode is a B for me.I think that it would be much better if we were able to see Kosh again.Of course his message was absolutely in his cryptic style but it's not the same as seeing him.Marcus or Neroon were better choices for me than characters we had never seen before but anyway it's a good stand alone episode.

vacantlook March 27th 08 17:57

Re: EpDis: Day Of The Dead
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Truth_Seeker (Post 316995)
...Marcus or Neroon were better choices for me than characters we had never seen before but anyway it's a good stand alone episode.

Aside from Lochley's dead friend Zoe, whom we have had no reason to see before since Lochley hadn't been in B5 until season five and Zoe died a long time before the show takes place, all the dead characters that visit we've seen before. Londo got to see Adira, the slave dancer he fell for in "Born To The Purple" that Morden had killed in "Interludes And Examinations". And Garibaldi got a visit from Dodger, a soldier who died in "GROPOS".

Truth_Seeker March 27th 08 18:01

Re: EpDis: Day Of The Dead
 
I suppose I forgot about Dodger in GROPOS.My mistake.Zoe was the only new character we saw.

Estelyn February 3rd 11 20:59

Re: EpDis: Day Of The Dead
 
I'm a bit ambiguous about this episode. I agree that Rebo and Zooty would have been better left unseen - then we would at least have had the illusion that they're funny. However, their subplot does explore the intrinsic worth of art, showing that it can be just a important to people as politics. I do find it interesting that they have learned about Minbari humour, causing Delenn to laugh out loud.

The "Day of the Dead" plot is perhaps choppy. Exploring several people's "visions" means that each experience appears rather superficial because it is brief. Seeing Zoe gives us some background information on Lochley, which is good, and it resolves a question that has been haunting her. I don't understand what Dodger does to resolve anything for Garibaldi. Londo's longing for Adira is understandable, of course, and being with her once more before becoming Emperor gives him one last personal joy.

The combination that intrigues me most is that of Lennier and Morden. What connection is there? Is it the fact that Morden asks what Lennier wants - his standard question? The prophecy of Lennier's betrayal is the next stone in the mosaic, building up to the actual event later.

And of course Kosh's message is suitably mysterious, as could be expected of him.

Lennier's Tears April 17th 15 01:26

Re: EpDis: Day Of The Dead
 
I LOVE Day of the Dead... for reasons I can't quite explain. There's just something sort of magical about this episode.

On the subject of Rebo and Zooty, I'm with Lochley. Yea, I understand that their humor is supposed to be appreciated in context, but I'm guessing that even in context, I wouldn't be amused. I don't much care for the Rebo and Zooty bits in this episode, but even so, I rank this one very highly.

I quite like the idea of a "Day of the Dead", and it fits well with what we know of the Brakiri .. which is very little, but they have that sort of gothy thing going on. I like the whole Day of the Dead atmosphere, with all the decorations and things. I also like that there is no explanation of what exactly happened there. I often get annoyed when things are left unexplained, but in this case it just really worked for me.

I think what I love most about this episode is seeing Londo with Adira again. It's nice that he gets to have another night with her, although I feel that seeing someone long dead again would be a LOT weirder than anyone on the show seems to think it is. I mean aside from the weird seemingly supernatural stuff going on .. have you ever seen someone who looks exactly like someone a deceased person you were close to? It's an extremely weird experience ... I think I commented on this before when Anna Sheridan returned from the dead. But, whatever, it's fiction, it works, I like those scenes.

The scenes with Lochley and her long-dead roommate are perhaps borderline cheesy, but that doesn't bother me either.It's nice to get some background on her. What a terribly non-secure passphrase, though! I'm assuming the passwords on Babylon 5 are more about voice recognition than the actual words spoken, because otherwise all the major characters would be in big trouble (Griffin? Come on.)

I still do not, and never will like puberty Lennier. I do like seeing him wearing the Ranger outfit, though. It's interesting that Morden would appear to him. And, did Morden get a haircut in the land of the dead? It amuses me how he keeps looking for coffee. The foreshadowing in the Lennier/Morden bit disturbed me a great deal the first time I watched this. I was so certain that Lennier would be killed off before the end of the show. It worried me greatly. Now I WISH Lennier had been killed off before the end of the show. But, we'll get to that when we get to that :p

I have to ask again, why do all the Brakiri appear male? If not for that woman whose presence sets off a fight between Sheridan and Garibaldi in Racing Mars, I'd believe that all Brakiri appear male to human eyes. Curious.

Jan April 18th 15 01:04

Re: EpDis: Day Of The Dead
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Lennier's Tears (Post 451443)
I have to ask again, why do all the Brakiri appear male? If not for that woman whose presence sets off a fight between Sheridan and Garibaldi in Racing Mars, I'd believe that all Brakiri appear male to human eyes. Curious.

FWIW, according to the Alien Guide that Larry DiTillio wrote for the League of Non-Allighned Worlds, the Brakiri are a male-dominated society with a social structure similar to that of Earth about three hundred years ago.

Jan

Mororless April 25th 15 15:26

Re: EpDis: Day Of The Dead
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Lennier's Tears (Post 451443)
I still do not, and never will like puberty Lennier. I do like seeing him wearing the Ranger outfit, though. It's interesting that Morden would appear to him. And, did Morden get a haircut in the land of the dead? It amuses me how he keeps looking for coffee. The foreshadowing in the Lennier/Morden bit disturbed me a great deal the first time I watched this. I was so certain that Lennier would be killed off before the end of the show. It worried me greatly. Now I WISH Lennier had been killed off before the end of the show. But, we'll get to that when we get to that .

Honestly I don't have a problem with the idea of Lennier committing some kind of betrayal out of love for Delenn but it was just done in a ham fisted fashion that went too against the grain for his character. Rather I would have preferred some kind of disobedience to try and save Delenn resulting in the deaths of others.

Lennier sticking his head in the sand again certainly makes sense but it does as Morden himself says feel like a bit of a wasted opportunity. I really like the idea of sending Morden back not to someone like Londo, Vir or Sheridan who he had history with but rather some one a bit more "morally sheltered" who had a world view he could poke a few holes in but we sadly only get a few hints at.

Indeed I think if CC had stayed Ivanova/Morden would have been a good pairing(considering the Macrus story was sposed to be unresolved) for similar reasons.

Lennier's Tears April 26th 15 23:55

Re: EpDis: Day Of The Dead
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mororless (Post 451459)

Honestly I don't have a problem with the idea of Lennier committing some kind of betrayal out of love for Delenn

That is a good point. He would do ANYTHING for her. But then what actually happens is he essentially betrays her in hopes of getting a chance with her. It IS in line with his weird bitter behavior throughout the fifth season, but it isn't in line with everything we learned about his character in previous seasons. I will definitely have more to say on that when I get to that particular episode in this rewatch (I've slowed down a bit, which tends to happen in the fifth season, but I've also just been a lot busier than before. Still going, though!)

I too would have liked to have seen some scenario like the one you suggest. It would have been a better fit. But alas.

I don't like how bitter Lennier has become, and how he seems convinced that if he trains hard enough he can be with Delenn. I know he's young and inexperienced, but does he really not understand that that's not how these things work? And what about his Ranger trainer? Does it not give him some sort of inner peace?

Mororless April 27th 15 03:06

Re: EpDis: Day Of The Dead
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Lennier's Tears (Post 451465)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mororless (Post 451459)

Honestly I don't have a problem with the idea of Lennier committing some kind of betrayal out of love for Delenn

That is a good point. He would do ANYTHING for her. But then what actually happens is he essentially betrays her in hopes of getting a chance with her. It IS in line with his weird bitter behavior throughout the fifth season, but it isn't in line with everything we learned about his character in previous seasons. I will definitely have more to say on that when I get to that particular episode in this rewatch (I've slowed down a bit, which tends to happen in the fifth season, but I've also just been a lot busier than before. Still going, though!)

I too would have liked to have seen some scenario like the one you suggest. It would have been a better fit. But alas.

I don't like how bitter Lennier has become, and how he seems convinced that if he trains hard enough he can be with Delenn. I know he's young and inexperienced, but does he really not understand that that's not how these things work? And what about his Ranger trainer? Does it not give him some sort of inner peace?

The #1 problem to me seemed to be that he simply didn't get enough focus in season 5 to have a "turn" built up and executed well. This episode is arguably a good example of that as he's not really given prime focus even though his story links into the arc more than anyone elses.

I think playing off Morden could have helped to setup the kind of "turn" I mentioned quite well. Basically have a conversation with him picking apart Lenniers world view, pointing out that unlike say Delenn he's never really dealt with moral grey areas or had to live with guilt from his previous actions.

Springer April 27th 15 10:46

Re: EpDis: Day Of The Dead
 
The only think that kind of makes sense about Lennier's bitterness to me is that he might have no longer felt needed at Delenn's side now she is married. You can't have three in a marriage and Lennier knows that – he can't be her constant companion when she now has wedding ring on her finger. So he doesn't feel he has a place now with her, so he leaves to avoid having to deal directly with it, and he trains hard because he's diverting all the energy from his frustration into that, because to him it's better than doing nothing, and I've been in that position so I know.

What Lennier needed to do in season 5 was to find his own path. Maybe not necessarily with the Rangers, maybe joining the Rangers could have led him down a road to a different destination. In the end though he just completely loses himself and what he stands for. It's like his moral anchor just vanishes.

Though I would say seeds for this plot line were sown in the fourth season. In The Summoning when Sheridan returns, Lennier is *not* happy. And then there's that conversation with Delenn in Rising Star about unrequited love. I think the most disappointing thing about Lennier's actions in Objects at Rest is that it sends the message that unrequited love leads to jealousy and selfishness.

Mororless April 27th 15 21:45

Re: EpDis: Day Of The Dead
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Springer (Post 451469)
What Lennier needed to do in season 5 was to find his own path. Maybe not necessarily with the Rangers, maybe joining the Rangers could have led him down a road to a different destination. In the end though he just completely loses himself and what he stands for. It's like his moral anchor just vanishes..

Which just didn't play with the way the character had developed prior to that for me, we didn't really get the sense he was only involved in the cause due to love for Delenn.

Another way to do it might I'd say have been to have him not fail the moral standards of others but his own moral standards. The simplist change I spose would be having things play out as they do but not have Sheridan or anyone but Lennier know that he failed to help. Although that wouldn't really address the moral shift entirely it would at least mean that he banishes himself on his own judgement not that of others.

Something like that again could have been foreshadowed with Morden. What I always liked about B5 compared to Trek was that characters like Sheridan and Delenn whilst obviously very moral kept there eye on the greater good rather than staying whiter than white and having the universe bend over backwards to reward them in a most unrealistic fashion. Lennier was more of the trek kind of character IMHO and someone like Morden who could likely have justified his actions in a pragmatic fashion would have been good to pick some holes in that.

Lennier's Tears April 28th 15 17:23

Re: EpDis: Day Of The Dead
 
I guess part of my problem is that I do not understand how having a wedding fundamentally alters a relationship. That isn't to say that it doesn't, in general, just that I personally don't get how changing your relationship status in the eyes of the law changes your relationship status in any other way. I have been married, and for me, having a ceremony and signing some papers didn't make the relationship different at all. Except maybe that for several weeks after the wedding I kept laughing at the idea that I was married because it seemed so ridiculous. But, that's just me :p

So, it's hard for me to grasp why Lennier is so hung up on the marriage thing. He's all "well, now that you're married, I've got to get out of your way". Was he maybe just hopeful that as long as Sheridan and Delenn weren't married, maybe there was still a chance they'd decide they didn't want to be together after all?

Lennier's job description doesn't change depending on Delenn's relationship status. Unless there is something about Minbari culture I never picked up on before, I would imagine there is little to no overlap between the "aide" position and the "romantic partner" position. Lennier and Delenn have become close and he is more to her than just an aide (confidant, friend, ..) but, her having a love interest doesn't mean she doesn't still need an aide. That's why arrangements are being made for a replacement. Lennier knows that also, so when he says "You don't need me" I guess he doesn't mean she doesn't need an aide, but more like that she doesn't need him, personally? I could definitely see how a person might feel that way, and wouldn't want to be around a person who didn't love them in the way they hoped they would. But, Lennier seemed to be doing just fine suppressing his own feelings in the past.

For me, the first hint of his bitterness is in that comment about unrequited love in Rising Star. I've seen people discuss Lennier's "disappointment" at Sheridan's "resurrection" (soo many quotation marks), but I just really don't see that. Again, that isn't to say it's not there, just that I haven't been able to detect it. I've been known to miss obvious things, but I would argue that this one isn't remotely obvious. I could be wrong :p

I agree with Springer at #37 that Lennier's somewhat obsessive Ranger training makes perfect sense in the context of him getting away from the Delenn situation and redirecting his frustration. Joining the Rangers seems like the logical choice for someone with his background in that particular situation. I don't object to that part of it at all. I do object to him telling Delenn "Well, maybe if I complete this training, you'll like me the way I want you to" (I paraphrase :p ) which is just painful to watch. I know he's young, and presumably his extensive training on Minbar didn't include anything to do with interpersonal relationships (it really should, though), but that seems like some high level cluelessness from an otherwise bright person.

This sort of toxic cocktail of wishful thinking, jealousy, bitterness isn't unrealistic in itself. It's a quite common thing among real world humans, and it leads otherwise reasonable people to do horrible things, much like what we see happen to Lennier in this storyline. What I object to (and it seems to me from the replies that this is also what others object to) is that this doesn't fit with what we know of Lennier's personality. He seems like one of the most loyal, devoted, and conscientious characters on the show. And perhaps that's why this is his fifth season storyline. It wouldn't have been very interesting to see someone less conscientious do what Lennier does. But my ability to stretch my willingness to believe only goes so far.

I guess my main takeaway from this storyline is that for beloved characters, there are fates worse than death!

Mororless April 30th 15 20:50

Re: EpDis: Day Of The Dead
 
I'm with you in not picking up any real disappointment from Lennier about Sheridans return, the main pointer before season 5 is his conversation from Marcus back in season 3.

Again I feel a better way to take Lenniers story might have been to prey of his naivety. Not in practical terms of course as he was obviously very competent there but as I said I think morality he tended to have more of a black and white view. Where as a lot of the characters have to learn to live with either mistakes and make judgements for the greater good that result in the deaths of others he doesn't really. His view of his relationship with Delenn seems to follow this as well.

For someone like that it wouldn't take something as extreme as effectively trying to kill a rival for Delenns affection to cause him to make a negative judgement on himself. Morden could have built up to that nicely IMHO looking to justify his actions as being for what he saw as the greater good and questioning Lenniers world view.


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